Spots in M3 Rangefinder Patch

[logan2z]

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I received my new-to-me SS M3 the other day and took it out for a photo shoot today.  While shooting I noticed several spots visible in the rangefinder patch. 

The camera had a CLA immediately prior to my purchase and the internals of the rangefinder were cleaned at that time, so I don't think these are caused by dust or other debris.  I spoke to the dealer who sold me the camera and they confirmed that the rangefinder was cleaned as well as it could be during the CLA and no amount of additional cleaning would resolve these spots. 

The dealer is very reputable and kindly offered to take the camera back for a full refund if I wasn't satisfied.  I'm debating returning the camera since I'm concerned that this is a sign of something that might worsen over time (rangefinder delamination, for example) and require an expensive repair - assuming the necessary M3 parts are even still available. On the other hand, this M3 is cosmetically beautiful and seems to be in great mechanical condition.  But I have a feeling that seeing these spots every time I look through the viewfinder is going to be bug me, especially considering that I paid what seems to be a top-of-market price for the camera, due to its otherwise beautiful condition.

I've attached a photo of the rangefinder patch.  Admittedly, some of these spots are less noticeable when I'm physically looking through the viewfinder - the camera I shot this with seems to have picked up more than I can see with my naked eye.  But several of these spots are easily visible when looking through the viewfinder.

Since this is the first M3 viewfinder I've looked through, I have no point of comparison.  Am I being too picky?  Is this common with M3s?  I do have an M4 and the rangefinder patch doesn't show any spots like this.  If this isn't dirt/debris, is it something that is likely to worsen over time and result in a costly repair?

Trying to decide if a return is the best option.

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Edited July 2, 2022 by logan2z

[spydrxx]

Not normal. To me it looks like potential fungus on some surface, but too hard to tell from the photo. Who performed the CLA and are the spots possibly on the mirror? Top repairers can replace the mirror. If the spots are irrelevant to you given the remainder of the overall condition, price you paid, etc., keep it. OTOH if there is a possibility someday you might sell the camera, they will detract from the price. Personally, if it was mine, I'd return it for a refund.

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[logan2z]

1 hour ago, spydrxx said:

Personally, if it was mine, I'd return it for a refund.

Thanks for the reply.  That's what I think I'll do.

[jerzy]

yes, this is not normal but I would not worry too much, I am pretty sure this is dust only. Rangefinder in Ms do not use mirrors like LTM, main prism is acting as beam splitter. And if main prism is deffective than it is a problem. But here it is dust, most probably on  the bightline frames or light deflecting element. Can be cleaned mostly but rangefinder needs to be partially dismanteled, cleaned and adjusted properly afterwards. So from this point of view repair may cost a bit, but if you do not mind the spots there is no need to worry

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[Huss]

15 hours ago, logan2z said:

I received my new-to-me SS M3 the other day and took it out for a photo shoot today.  While shooting I noticed several spots visible in the rangefinder patch. 

The camera had a CLA immediately prior to my purchase and the internals of the rangefinder were cleaned at that time, so I don't think these are caused by dust or other debris.  I spoke to the dealer who sold me the camera and they confirmed that the rangefinder was cleaned as well as it could be during the CLA and no amount of additional cleaning would resolve these spots. 

The dealer is very reputable and kindly offered to take the camera back for a full refund if I wasn't satisfied.  I'm debating returning the camera since I'm concerned that this is a sign of something that might worsen over time (rangefinder delamination, for example) and require an expensive repair - assuming the necessary M3 parts are even still available. On the other hand, this M3 is cosmetically beautiful and seems to be in great mechanical condition.  But I have a feeling that seeing these spots every time I look through the viewfinder is going to be bug me, especially considering that I paid what seems to be a top-of-market price for the camera, due to its otherwise beautiful condition.

I've attached a photo of the rangefinder patch.  Admittedly, some of these spots are less noticeable when I'm physically looking through the viewfinder - the camera I shot this with seems to have picked up more than I can see with my naked eye.  But several of these spots are easily visible when looking through the viewfinder.

Since this is the first M3 viewfinder I've looked through, I have no point of comparison.  Am I being too picky?  Is this common with M3s?  I do have an M4 and the rangefinder patch doesn't show any spots like this.  If this isn't dirt/debris, is it something that is likely to worsen over time and result in a costly repair?

Trying to decide if a return is the best option.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

My M3 doesn't have that.  To me it looks like it could be early signs of delamination.  Which is repairable, but time and money.

I bought a cosmetically perfect condition M4 from a very reputable dealer - pretty sure the same as your one... - that had advertised new shutter curtains with shutter service.  And it came with the receipt of said service from a very well know and reputable Leica tech.  This dealer states that every camera that they sell is checked over multiple times to make sure that what you get is perfect.

Well, when I received it the first thing I did was dry fire it through the shutter speeds w the back open - a very crude test.  And in doing that I could literally see the curtains dragging and bouncing back!  So much for that.  After sending this very reputable dealer a video I shot showing this, they agreed to a refund.

Point being, every transaction is a unique one and it does not matter who is selling it to you.  If you're not happy, send it back.

 

[Mute-on]

@Huss is correct about delamination, but it is of the frameline mask (which is a glass sandwich up to M4), not the rangefinder prism.  
Good that you are sending it back. 
 

[logan2z]

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The camera is on its way back to the seller.  Great viewfinder, I'll look for another at some point.

[MyLeica]

On 7/2/2022 at 1:10 AM, logan2z said:

I received my new-to-me SS M3 the other day and took it out for a photo shoot today.  While shooting I noticed several spots visible in the rangefinder patch. 

The camera had a CLA immediately prior to my purchase and the internals of the rangefinder were cleaned at that time, so I don't think these are caused by dust or other debris.  I spoke to the dealer who sold me the camera and they confirmed that the rangefinder was cleaned as well as it could be during the CLA and no amount of additional cleaning would resolve these spots. 

The dealer is very reputable and kindly offered to take the camera back for a full refund if I wasn't satisfied.  I'm debating returning the camera since I'm concerned that this is a sign of something that might worsen over time (rangefinder delamination, for example) and require an expensive repair - assuming the necessary M3 parts are even still available. On the other hand, this M3 is cosmetically beautiful and seems to be in great mechanical condition.  But I have a feeling that seeing these spots every time I look through the viewfinder is going to be bug me, especially considering that I paid what seems to be a top-of-market price for the camera, due to its otherwise beautiful condition.

I've attached a photo of the rangefinder patch.  Admittedly, some of these spots are less noticeable when I'm physically looking through the viewfinder - the camera I shot this with seems to have picked up more than I can see with my naked eye.  But several of these spots are easily visible when looking through the viewfinder.

Since this is the first M3 viewfinder I've looked through, I have no point of comparison.  Am I being too picky?  Is this common with M3s?  I do have an M4 and the rangefinder patch doesn't show any spots like this.  If this isn't dirt/debris, is it something that is likely to worsen over time and result in a costly repair?

Trying to decide if a return is the best option.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Looks like bubbling caused by the original balsam glue degrading over time. I have a similar problem with my M4, which is currently in for repair at Leica Germany. They told me that they would clean it as best as they can but the putty damage and bubbling will remain unfortunately.

[spydrxx]

If you wanted to spend the $ you could have the RF assembly replaced. I did that a couple of years ago when my M4 was damaged in a fall. Sherrie Krauter did an excellent job.

[logan2z]

25 minutes ago, spydrxx said:

If you wanted to spend the $ you could have the RF assembly replaced. I did that a couple of years ago when my M4 was damaged in a fall. Sherrie Krauter did an excellent job.

Had the seller been willing to pay for the repair I would have done that, but that wasn't an option given to me.  And since I'd just paid top-dollar for an M3 in 'excellent' condition I wasn't willing to foot the bill myself. 

It's also been suggested that this problem was caused by a deteriorating frameline mask which is NLA for the M3. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by logan2z