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M10 in 2022 and beyond.


kyoto5
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My daily driver at the moment is an Fuji xpro3. I currently use it with a Voigtlander Ultron 35mm F2 (M mount) over my other Fuji glass. I have started using the OVF over the EVF a lot more also. The manual and tactile way of shooting speaks to me, I’m so much more creative when shooting this way. I thoroughly enjoy the RF style of shooting. My other “kit” which has literally sat on my desk for the last three months is a Sony A7iv with a good selection of high end glass (Sony GM‘s & Sigma Art primes). I now actually have no desire to use this kit, it feels like a point and shoot camera with no character at all. When I’m going anywhere I choose the Fuji first every time and have to really force myself to use the Sony gear.

Anyway I have been admiring the M series for a long time and I feel while I can get decent money for my Sony gear - now is the time to sell it off and buy Leica. However if I was to sell the Sony gear alone I could only buy a used M10 and possibly a used Leica Lens. If I sold my Fuji gear also I could possibly stretch to an M10R and use the Voigtlander as an interim lens until I could then afford some Leica glass. I prefer the 50mm composition so my ultimate desired lens would be a Summicron 50mm.

My conundrum is; Buying an M10 in ‘22 worth investing in or should I try stretch to the M10R and start my Leica journey here instead.

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I recently purchased a new original M10 (end of line stock from  Red Dot Cameras in London) which has replaced my X-Pro 3.

I'm very happy with it; 24MP are enough for me (and my computer), and I don't miss a touchscreen with this style of shooting.  The camera is a joy, image quality a good step up from the previous Typ 240, and I don't miss autofocus at all.  I've kept an X-T4, couple of zooms and a macro lens for when I need them, but much prefer the M.

I guess you can't go wrong with either M10 but if you can get the original in excellent condition for less money, that might help towards lenses and although I've not used it, I'm sure the 50mm Summicron would be a very good purchase.  

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Essentially, your camera choice just comes down to megapixels.  I don’t think the M10R is worth the premium over an M10 or M10-P.  My vote is sell everything except the VM 35mm and buy an M10-P.  There’s lots of 50mm lenses to try before you settle on one.

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I’ve had my M10-P for close in 3 years now and love it. I won’t ever change it or sell it as it was a very personal purchase for me. 
However if I was buying today I’d look at the M10-R, the bump in resolution would be nice, I believe the R handles over exposure on highlights better and of course it’s a younger model. 
And of course if one came across a M10-R black paint that would be  the one I’d buy.

As I said though I love, love, love my M10-P and would definitely recommend.  

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Try a M8 first. They are reasonable cheap, and if you sell them, losses will be low. With the M8, you then can really experience the RF.

all this, can be done without selling any of your equipment; then, after 6-12 months you will be able to make a good decision and buy/trade what you want.

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M10 is a great camera. The only thing I prefer about my M10-R (the glossy black paint version) and M10M is to have some extra room for cropping (which I normally don't do, but have been with a recent project with the M10M), though I guess the 11 would be even better for that. That said, I've made big prints from the M8/9/and 10 that have all been brilliant. I might try and stretch it to an M10-P if you can. The silver esp is the one of the best looking digital M imo, second only to the M10-R black paint, with the bronze going to the M10M. 24MP is plenty esp with today's upsizing software. 

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Since it seems your preference to use Fuji gear with manual focus glass suggests upgrading to a M10 would be seamless. I'd suggest either a M10P or M10rR as they both allow for a quieter shutter and the added functionality for perspective control through firmware update. But if you're alright with MP output of the Fuji then the M10 will do you just fine. Perhaps leave some room to invest into Leica glass

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, kyoto5 said:

My conundrum is; Buying an M10 in ‘22 worth investing in or should I try stretch to the M10R and start my Leica journey here instead.

The Ultron 35 ii is a very good lens and better than the Summicron 35 iv but with the same character. You will love it.  Whether you want more pixels with the M10R is a choice on its own. So I do not see so much the M10+Leica lens versus M10R+Ultron opposition. Coming from an M9 (I sold my M10 after a year because I did not like the yellow cast, although it is better than that orange/yellow from Sony) I had to get used to the M10R a bit because the shutter times need a bit more speed in a quite a lot of  situations. But I’m addicted to its colors, way better than the M10 and almost as neutral as the M9, but more dense and full. Now that I have it I really like the ability to crop towards still high resolution images, because I really prefer walking around with one small lens. And being able to shoot small things when they pass by is a great plus for me. 
In short: With a cropped image of the Ultron 35ii from the M10R  you will probably have a sharper image than with the M10/Summicron 50 v combi

Edited by otto.f
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On 7/1/2022 at 8:41 AM, kyoto5 said:

My conundrum is; Buying an M10 in ‘22 worth investing in or should I try stretch to the M10R and start my Leica journey here instead.

I was in a similar place as you about two months ago.  M10-P, M10-R, or M11?  After reading Sean Reid's reviews I went with the R. I came from using a M240P so my research sequence was M240P vs M10.  Review demonstrated nice and worthwhile improvements.  Then it was M10/P vs M10-R.  Again, reviews demonstrated nice and worthwhile improvements.  Then M10-R vs M11.  Nice improvements but they seemed marginal and unnecessary for me.  (No knock against the M11).  I should mention that ISO performance was my biggest criteria.  I was tired of spending too much time PP'ing ISO 1600 shots from my M240P.  

I found a dealer that had a new R and offered a big discount so I jumped on it.  Lots of used Rs for sale just north of $6,000.  Best wishes on whatever you decide.  

PS  I highly recommend Reid Reviews if you want an objective reviews and a comparison between the M10/P and M10-R.  It's a pay site but, to me, money well spent.  

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To continue what @RayD28had found since i have similar pathways, i kept the R since it was black paint which I intentionally looked for and recently got the M11 even though knowing the difference is quite marginal in terms of sensors, but practically having a bigger battery and usb c are the only things that lure me to get the M11

unless these things don’t really matter, the M10R is a keeper with a great price discounted 

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I think the M10R is great and very mature camera. Your Ultron will be fine with it. I am sure there are some on the used market or you get one with a discount. They should all still have warranty on it. Something to consider, too, maybe. You never know with Leica 😅

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19 hours ago, Photon42 said:

10I think the M10R is great and very mature camera. Your Ultron will be fine with it. I am sure there are some on the used market or you get one with a discount. They should all still have warranty on it. Something to consider, too, maybe. You never know with Leica 😅

I'd agree.  I tested the M11 and wasn't convinced - for me, despite its qualities, it's an interim model. 

I then replaced my M10 with M10-R.  For me, this is THE M.  It's the last one with the base-plate, has the most discreet, near silent shutter of all Ms (apart from the P), resolves the problems with blown highlights that could be an issue with the M10, and feels like a completely mature instrument.  Having started with M8 and gone through all the following iterations (an expensive process!) I can't see a reason for getting another M unless and if ever there's a genuinely hybrid M with IBIS (pigs with wings territory?). 

This said - the M10 is a very fine camera, and if it fits your budget, and if you stick with ISO 200 as a base and expose carefully, you reallt can't go wrong.  You'll get years of service. 

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Leica had never produced a digital M that appealed to me until I tried the M10-R.  There was always something not quite right from early cameras being fatally flawed (M8 & M9) to being bloated (everything up to M10), noise at higher iso, poor highlight control, unacceptable colour etc.  I could see no point in buying a digital camera that was incapable of coming close the the Nikon dslrs I've used to make my living with.

The 'Leica M user experience' alone was simply not a good enough reason to spend the money on a digital M.  Meanwhile, my film MP just goes on and on creating images I'm happy with and giving me a genuine M user experience.

I was quite happy to ignore each successive digital M until I tried the M10-R and had the time to take a good look at the files.   Finally, this was a digital M I could live with.  Better still, it was available in black paint so I bought one and it makes a seamless digital alternative to my MP.  Now I have the best of both worlds with two Leica M cameras that are ergonomically and aesthetically similar.

At the time I bought my M10-R, the M11 had just become available and I gave a lot of consideration to weighing up the comparatively stripped back M10-R against the M11.  It would be foolish to spend £7400 without thinking about the options.  

The M11 to me is a transitional camera with some operational foibles I dislike along with increased resolution (not necessary for most practical purposes) and reportedly better highlight retention ( mainly the responsibility of the person using the camera) and a little better high iso noise.  In the end I found the M10-R's dna to be closer to my MP, possibly the last of it's kind in that respect and that's where I put my £7400.  No regrets, I'd do the same again.  

The M10-R is an evolutionary step up from the M10 with better resolution, reasonably good higher iso and pleasing colour rendering.  I like the idiosyncrasies of the removable baseplate and frame line selector lever, the quiet traditional shutter and the release which is similar in feel to my MP. 

I suspect all of this will still have some relevance to me for a few years so I'll keep the M10-R for the foreseeable future or until I'm eventually tempted by something else.  In the meantime, the M10-R is mainly fun to use and complements my MP, seven Leica and three Voigtlander lenses well.  Otherwise, if I want a different look to my images and a more immersive process from capture to print, I use film.

 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Leica had never produced a digital M that appealed to me until I tried the M10-R.  There was always something not quite right from early cameras being fatally flawed (M8 & M9) to being bloated (everything up to M10), noise at higher iso, poor highlight control, unacceptable colour etc.  I could see no point in buying a digital camera that was incapable of coming close the the Nikon dslrs I've used to make my living with.

The 'Leica M user experience' alone was simply not a good enough reason to spend the money on a digital M.  Meanwhile, my film MP just goes on and on creating images I'm happy with and giving me a genuine M user experience.

I was quite happy to ignore each successive digital M until I tried the M10-R and had the time to take a good look at the files.   Finally, this was a digital M I could live with.  Better still, it was available in black paint so I bought one and it makes a seamless digital alternative to my MP.  Now I have the best of both worlds with two Leica M cameras that are ergonomically and aesthetically similar.

At the time I bought my M10-R, the M11 had just become available and I gave a lot of consideration to weighing up the comparatively stripped back M10-R against the M11.  It would be foolish to spend £7400 without thinking about the options.  

The M11 to me is a transitional camera with some operational foibles I dislike along with increased resolution (not necessary for most practical purposes) and reportedly better highlight retention ( mainly the responsibility of the person using the camera) and a little better high iso noise.  In the end I found the M10-R's dna to be closer to my MP, possibly the last of it's kind in that respect and that's where I put my £7400.  No regrets, I'd do the same again.  

The M10-R is an evolutionary step up from the M10 with better resolution, reasonably good higher iso and pleasing colour rendering.  I like the idiosyncrasies of the removable baseplate and frame line selector lever, the quiet traditional shutter and the release which is similar in feel to my MP. 

I suspect all of this will still have some relevance to me for a few years so I'll keep the M10-R for the foreseeable future or until I'm eventually tempted by something else.  In the meantime, the M10-R is mainly fun to use and complements my MP, seven Leica and three Voigtlander lenses well.  Otherwise, if I want a different look to my images and a more immersive process from capture to print, I use film.

 

The main key is being M10-R in black paint, i had the same situation too and i concur, shooting experience with the M digital since the M10 era has always been more of a pleasure and coming from MP, it’s so seamless

i bought mine on the last ditch available to me when M11 started to leak, the lack of baseplate that actually made up my mind 😂

anyhow, 6 months down the road, the only feature i love bout the M11, it’s battery life as well as usb c, my workflow depending on iPad  entirely and any easy access to files are very favorable hence i got the M11

believe it or not, the lacks of few mm in thickness make a difference when grabbing and holding it, added bonus besides the battery and the usb c

having said that, im still keeping my M10R BP for my pleasure time shooting on any given lazy sunday 😆

 

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Edited by jakontil
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On 7/9/2022 at 4:54 PM, Photon42 said:

The APO Lanthar is a great lens. Totally affordable, not too heavy, super smooth focussing (at least on my copy) and if you don't use it in a hospital, you don't get clinical images ...

How do you find the viewfinder obstruction with the APO. I’m very interested in this lens but this does put me off a little. 

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On 7/7/2022 at 11:42 AM, Vinncent said:

Well you and I are the same person. 
I sold my XPro3 and went with the M10. The biggest change was the experience. In terms of IQ it was already good with the XPro3

then I found the sensor had an issue, so I went with a brand new M10R Black Paint. 

Same thing. Started with Voigtlander lenses. I went through the 50f1.5 II, Zeiss Planar 50f2, and last was the APO-Lanthar. 

And now the Summicron 50f2 (also brand new)

It was the M10R that give me that big jump in IQ. No more blown highlights and the sensor really brings out the character of the lenses a lot more in my experience  

While there’s nothing wrong with the M10 at all (I loved mine), if you could do the M10R, have a nice cheaper lens and then wait a year or so to recoup some money the combo of the 10R and the Cron is just awesome. That’s what I would do. 

Also if they gave me a choice between the M11 and the M10R I would choose the M10R. It’s really the perfection of the digital M. Still classic. 
 

As far as Ultron lenses with the 10R, one of my favorite lenses of all time that I kept and never sold through all this was the 28f2 Ultron II. This lens is the perfect companion to a 50mm. The images are beautiful and with very high resolution. It didn’t flinch when I put it on the 10R. If anything it’s more beautiful now. I’m going to be buried with it. 
 

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I wish they made a 50 Ultron but for some reason they don’t. If you want the absolute perfect clinical image go with the APO-Lanthar. It’s heavy and bigger and it’ll be annoying, but the images are perfection. 
 

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Balances better on the SL if you ask me 

Personally I would get the 50f1.5 Nokton II MC, and have that until you’re ready to move to Leica. Playing with Voigtlander is a good way to see which focal length you love the most on the Leica before you drop a pile of cash on Leica glass. 

28mm and 50mm sounds like my dream setup.

My only worry about the APO on the M10 is the OVF obstruction how do you find it? Is this what you were referring to when you said it will be annoying?

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This “post” was lifted word for word from my Reddit account that I posted on the Leica Sub. But thanks for the responses, some great bits of information. I’m hopefully closing the deal on an excellent condition M10R next week. I plan to use my CV 35mm Ultron whilst I recoup some funds to make an investment into some Leica glass (50mm). Any tips on adapting to the Leica M world are appreciated. 

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