Barnack's Birth Certificate

[LocalHero1953]

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2 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

what is C19 and what do you mean by "both versions" ? 

It's an abbreviation (that I was taught at school) for 'nineteenth century'.

And by "both versions" I meant 'Oscar' and 'Oskar'. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[willeica]

29 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It's an abbreviation (that I was taught at school) for 'nineteenth century'.

And by "both versions" I meant 'Oscar' and 'Oskar'. 

I wonder if Bill is sorry that he set out on writing an article about this, as I think that definitive conclusions will be impossible. It is obvious that both 'Oskar' and 'Oscar' were used and that the latter related largely to family matters, whereas the former was used for official purposes e.g. when working for Leitz. It still does not get us any nearer to finding out which of the 'two candidates' engraved No 105. That is very much 'eaten bread' at this stage, of course.

William 

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[Kl@usW.]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb pop:

The underwriting is - of course - in another handwriting. There are several instances of the surname 'Barnack' in the document, written in the hand of the civil servant filling in the form. In all instances  the lower case 'k' is much shorter, quite similar to the letter following the round 's' in 'Os_ar'. There are IMO just too many squiggles between the s and the a for a mere c.

OK, forget the underwriting, wrong reference. But what about the last  name of Ferdinand and Caroline : Barnack. The last letter of the name is clearly  a  lower case k. Right ? Written by the same registrar who filled in the name of the newborn. I don't see that lower case k in the name of Oscar, but it´s exactly the c you find in the chart of Mazdaro. I agree that handwriting is highly individual, but a in a Prussian registrar you can be quite sure of a consistent writing. Part of his job description. 

[Kl@usW.]

vor einer Stunde schrieb LocalHero1953:

It's an abbreviation (that I was taught at school) for 'nineteenth century'.

And by "both versions" I meant 'Oscar' and 'Oskar'. 

Oh, I see.   I have to find out  if my Mac can write "Fraktur" , otherwise I need to find a stiff penholder and preferably a permanent black ink.    

[UliWer]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

It is obvious that both 'Oskar' and 'Oscar' were used and that the latter related largely to family matters, whereas the former was used for official purposes e.g. when working for Leitz.

The spelling "Oskar" still is and also was at Barnack's time much more frequent for the name. Oscar Barnack certainly made the experience that his name was often misspelled as Oskar. It was probably much easier to accept the spelling with k to avoid constant corrections. I know similar cases - even with family names - from my ancestors. Barnack's full name was probably most often used in his professional life, so I can well understand that he used the more frequent "Oskar" - even for "official" purposes: the signature for his first patent application of a photographic camera from 1914 was signed "Oskar Barnack" (the signature is reproduced in Ulf Richter's book about Barnack on p. 58 of the German edition). 

[willeica]

9 hours ago, UliWer said:

The spelling "Oskar" still is and also was at Barnack's time much more frequent for the name. Oscar Barnack certainly made the experience that his name was often misspelled as Oskar. It was probably much easier to accept the spelling with k to avoid constant corrections. I know similar cases - even with family names - from my ancestors. Barnack's full name was probably most often used in his professional life, so I can well understand that he used the more frequent "Oskar" - even for "official" purposes: the signature for his first patent application of a photographic camera from 1914 was signed "Oskar Barnack" (the signature is reproduced in Ulf Richter's book about Barnack on p. 58 of the German edition). 

Thanks. This dual use of 'Oskar' and 'Oscar' has been established. The investigation on this started with the engraving 'Oscar Barnack' on No 105. It was assumed by many, including myself, that this was an 'Anglicised' spelling of the name and was thus done by a mainly English speaking person. However, the camera had been in the possession of Conrad Barnack who always referred to his father as 'Oscar'. I went through his 1949 typed manuscript when I was in Wetzlar recently and he referred to his father as 'Oscar' throughout. I also saw a typed version of Barnack's marriage certificate from 1903 which used 'Oscar'. In the midst of all of this I had forgotten that 'Oscar' was used on Barnack's gravestone, which I had photographed when I was in Wetzlar in 2018. I have seen many documents signed 'Oskar' and I do, of course, have the Richter book; indeed, I constantly recommend it to anyone who has any interest in early Leicas.

The investigation of all of this is in danger of becoming circular as all the evidence is that both versions were used and that, therefore, neither is ' fully correct' if people can understand my use of that term. I have tried to describe the different circumstances in which the two versions were used.

Can I mention one last thing, mainly for the benefit of Bill Rosauer who will be in Wetzlar in October? Tim Pullmann MD of Leitz-Park (which includes the museum and archives), showed me some recently published large books (a 3 volume set) in German about Leitz. One of those volumes had an astonishing of detail about Leitz employees, including which patents each had been involved with. The author is Helmut Lagler who is a member of the German Leica Historical Society. The context of this was that I had been showing Tim the LHSA online Archives. However, Helmut seemed to have much more material, but he had gone down the route of publishing large books rather than putting the material online as the LHSA has done. His material on Leitz employees was quite unique and seemed to indicate a degree of access to the Leitz factory documentation. For anyone who can speak or read German, I would recommend that they acquire these books or speak to Helmut himself. 

Bill is continuing his work on the 'C' v 'K' article and it will appear in LHSA Viewfinder, alongside a revised post auction version of my article on No 105. In relation to the latter the main changes are a description of the auction itself and some reference to my discussion with Ottmar Michaely. The latter, of course, confirmed that what I had written already was correct. 

William 

[luigi bertolotti]

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A collateral question... what about the family name of mother Carolina ?  I can just read "geboren Be.... "  

[romanus53]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb luigi bertolotti:

A collateral question... what about the family name of mother Carolina ?  I can just read "geboren Be.... "  

have a look on the German site

[wizard]

Am 2.7.2022 um 22:37 schrieb pop:

There are IMO just too many squiggles between the s and the a for a mere c.

As many of you may know, I have always argued that Mr. Barnack's first name was 'Oskar', not 'Oscar'. However, after intensively studying the above birth certificate, I have to admit that his second given name spells 'Oscar'. I do not see any squiggles between the 's' and the 'c'. Just compare how the letters 'ack' at the end of 'Barnack' are written by the officer when he wrote down Mr. Barnack's father's name 'Ferdinand Barnack' (I have omitted the father's first given name here). The 'c' is identical to the 'c' in 'Oscar' in my view. And the 's' in 'Oscar' is exactly as indicated in the Wikipedia printout.

So to me there is no reasonable doubt that what is spelled on the birth certificate is 'Oscar'. And believe me, I was looking for evidence to the contrary 😁.

[wizard]

Am 2.7.2022 um 23:41 schrieb willeica:

It still does not get us any nearer to finding out which of the 'two candidates' engraved No 105.

I am now leaning more and more to thinking that it was the first candidate. It would be very interesting to know whether 105 had that engraving when it was given to the Deutsches Museum for the second time, that is from around 1954 to 1960, as this could prove who did the engraving. Unfortunately, I was told by the Deutsches Museum that the only photograph they have showing 105 in the Museum is from its first stay, which started in 1939 (or thereabout).

Andy

[jaapv]

There are sites which transcribe to vintage `German handwriting.

This is Oskar:

 

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

And this is Oscar:

 

 

My conclusion: It is Oskar.

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2 hours ago, wizard said:

I do not see any squiggles between the 's' and the 'c'.

Neither do I. It's what stands between the 's' and the vowel 'a' that has too many squiggles for a 'c', too few for a 'k'.

There are several difficulties with this sample. For one, the lower case 'c' has an extra half loop on top in most cases. This seems the case everywhere but in the combination 'sch' where the 'c' is written as expected. In most occurrences in the sample the small loop is attached to the body of the 'c'; in the name 'Oscar' or 'Oskar, it isn't. Then, the lower case 'k' lacks in all occurrences its prominent ascender (the long upright stem). Hence, the letter between the 's' and the 'a' is not clearly defined and might be a 'c' with an extra connecting loop to the next letter or a somewhat distorted 'k'.

[willeica]

5 hours ago, wizard said:

As many of you may know, I have always argued that Mr. Barnack's first name was 'Oskar', not 'Oscar'. However, after intensively studying the above birth certificate, I have to admit that his second given name spells 'Oscar'. I do not see any squiggles between the 's' and the 'c'. Just compare how the letters 'ack' at the end of 'Barnack' are written by the officer when he wrote down Mr. Barnack's father's name 'Ferdinand Barnack' (I have omitted the father's first given name here). The 'c' is identical to the 'c' in 'Oscar' in my view. And the 's' in 'Oscar' is exactly as indicated in the Wikipedia printout.

So to me there is no reasonable doubt that what is spelled on the birth certificate is 'Oscar'. And believe me, I was looking for evidence to the contrary 😁.

In the real world we are more than our birth certs. What is more important than what is on the birth or marriage certs is what was actually used and there is more than enough evidence that both spellings were used. He is described as 'Oscar' in his final resting place.

This use of different spellings for a person's name is not at all unusual. In writing, I have been called William, Willie, Willy, Willi and Bill to name but a few. I have responded to all of them.

Conrad Barnack called his father 'Oscar' and he was the one with the camera. We still don't know who did the engraving. Neither Jim Lager, Lars Netopil (a competitor to Leitz Auction) nor Ottmar Michaely, who worked on the camera before the auction, think that the spelling of Barnack's first name on the camera is significant as regards its value or authenticity, as was being implied at length in another thread on this forum. All of this is 'eaten bread' now that the auction is over.

William 

[wizard]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb willeica:

In writing, I have been called William, Willie, Willy, Willi and Bill to name but a few.

Willie, Willy, Willi and Bill are all abbreviations of your first name William, so that is something different than what is discussed here. Oscar is not an abbreviation of Oskar, and vice versa. The question is and was about the spelling of the full name.

 

vor 10 Stunden schrieb willeica:

Neither Jim Lager, Lars Netopil (a competitor to Leitz Auction) nor Ottmar Michaely, who worked on the camera before the auction, think that the spelling of Barnack's first name on the camera is significant as regards its value or authenticity, as was being implied at length in another thread on this forum. All of this is 'eaten bread' now that the auction is over.

I don't understand why in this particular thread, which is all about Barnack's birth certificate, you are still referring to the value of 105 or its authenticity. Indeed, all of this is 'eaten bread' now and has nothing to do with the question of whether Mr. Barnack's first name should be spelled 'Oscar' or 'Oskar', which at least to me is an interesting question in itself.

Andy

[willeica]

39 minutes ago, wizard said:

Willie, Willy, Willi and Bill are all abbreviations of your first name William, so that is something different than what is discussed here. Oscar is not an abbreviation of Oskar, and vice versa. The question is and was about the spelling of the full name.

 

I don't understand why in this particular thread, which is all about Barnack's birth certificate, you are still referring to the value of 105 or its authenticity. Indeed, all of this is 'eaten bread' now and has nothing to do with the question of whether Mr. Barnack's first name should be spelled 'Oscar' or 'Oskar', which at least to me is an interesting question in itself.

Andy

They are different spellings of what I recognise as my name or names as well. My name in Irish is Liam and that would be accepted for official purposes in my country. If you examine this you will also find that they are the last 4 letters in 'William', but the name 'Liam ' is centuries old. For what it is worth, I am called different names by different sets of people e.g. family, friends, inside and out side of Ireland etc, etc. It seems to have been the same for 'Oskar v Oscar'. 

Bill Rosauer has just sent me the draft of his 'C' v 'K' article for comments and it too refers to the engraving on No 105. This will appear as a set of two articles in LHSA Viewfinder, mine about No 105 and his about 'C' v 'K'. The key to what we are talking about (which arose from the No 105 discussion) is in the bit which I have highlighted in the quote above. There is no absolute 'should be' in this. Both spellings were used and legitimately so.

I think you quoted German law on this before (please correct me if I am wrong) but, in the real world, laws don't dictate how we spell names used in personal matters, particularly for engravings on cameras. 

William 

[wizard]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb willeica:

... but, in the real world, laws don't dictate how we spell names used in personal matters,

+1. But I'd be quite surprised if you were able, in Ireland or elsewhere on this lovely planet, to get a new passport indicating Willy as your first name when in fact your first name is William.

[Anbaric]

Is any of Os(c/k)ar's personal correspondence available for study? We know he used 'Oskar' at work, but are there any letters to his friends or family that might tell us which spelling he may have preferred elsewhere?

[willeica]

1 hour ago, wizard said:

+1. But I'd be quite surprised if you were able, in Ireland or elsewhere on this lovely planet, to get a new passport indicating Willy as your first name when in fact your first name is William.

No I  wouldn’t, but there would be no law stopping me or and any of my children from engraving this on a camera. I would not engrave any of my photographic equipment, of course. 

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

Is any of Os(c/k)ar's personal correspondence available for study? We know he used 'Oskar' at work, but are there any letters to his friends or family that might tell us which spelling he may have preferred elsewhere?

I have mentioned Helmut Lagler to Bill Rosauer as a possible source of contemporary documents indicating how Barnack was mentioned or addressed. Bill has pretty well reviewed most of what we have mentioned here plus a few other items. In most official communications I have seen it is Herr Barnack. 
 

William 

[wizard]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

My conclusion: It is Oskar.

Jaap, have a look at the corresponding thread in the German language forum, cf. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/333961-barnacks-birth-certificate/#comment-4465590

Xoons has even marked the respective letters in different colors (see post #17) to further clarify matters. And has indicated a 'k' underneath the 'c' to show how it should look like if it were 'Oskar'.

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