35 Summilux Pre Asph vs Pre FLE

[BigBabyEarl]

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I tried doing some research and couldn’t find another thread. I have been looking at the titanium versions of these two lenses. Is there a consensus on which one would be more desirable overall? I want the titanium finish, just not sure which optical formula is more special. 

[evikne]

There is a huge difference. The pre-FLE is a much more modern lens, but also bigger and heavier. Here is one recent answer from another discussion:

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[jaeger]

Does 35 lux pre ASPH has titanium?

[pippy]

3 hours ago, jaeger said:

Does 35 lux pre ASPH has titanium?

Not sure what you are asking.

There was a version of the v2 35 Summilux finished in 'Titanium'-coloured paint released circa 1992 possibly to be a colour co-ordinated match with the Titanium-finish M6 of the same era. It shared exactly the same optics as the usual black-chrome version which had been manufactured for decades.

The 'Titanium' offering wasn't manufactured using any Titanium metal anywhere in its construction...

Philip.

Edited June 26, 2022 by pippy

[BigBabyEarl]

Yet I understand the titanium pre asph has better contrast. 

[grahamc]

4 hours ago, BigBabyEarl said:

Yet I understand the titanium pre asph has better contrast. 

I believe that's because the late Germany 35:1.4 v2 pre-asph's (available in standard black aluminium or titanium) likely updated the coatings .  There is commonly agreed less glow wide open, some say more contrast and/or sharper although as with a lot of these things opinions differ and there has been some debate.  

Some users refer to these lenses needing 'taming' especially at wider apertures but I didn't experience that in the slightest, so make of that what you will in the whole debate about how early/late versions 'may' differ. 

FWIW here's my Titanium version & I'm extremely pleased with it.   

The titanium-coated ones, whilst not made from Titanium, are made in brass. Meaning they weigh slightly more (still light though - I can weigh if it’s of interest), but around 220g if memory serves me correctly  

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Edited June 27, 2022 by grahamc

[Capuccino-Muffin]

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I find the pre-asph in Titanium finish to be absolutely gorgeous. Perfect match: Tiny yet heavy. 

Although both these lenses you are asking for are finished in Titanium extra durable finish(impossible to wear off), it is important to note that they are made out of Solid Brass. This makes them heavier and adds the superb tactile feeling.

Those 2 lenses are made of Brass only with the Titanium finish. Otherwise they are anodized aluminum.  
 

I went with the pre-asph Titanium: made in Germany, Legendary lens, made out of Brass, finished in Titanium. For who values those little things, that combo of material, finish and weight is hard to beat.

[grahamc]

Might be worth mentioning that this camera I have posted gets a lot of use - the Titan is unmarked.  
 

And also that the SF24 is not this big !  😂😳

Edited June 27, 2022 by grahamc

[BigBabyEarl]

Beautiful set up!

[egrossman]

14 hours ago, grahamc said:

I believe that's because the late Germany 35:1.4 v2 pre-asph's (available in standard black aluminium or titanium) likely updated the coatings .  There is commonly agreed less glow wide open, some say more contrast and/or sharper although as with a lot of these things opinions differ and there has been some debate.  

I'm curious, do you or anyone else have a sense of what year these coatings were updated? I'm trying to get a better understanding of what "late" in the 35mm Summilux v2 production cycle actually means. I'm in the market for a such a lens and I've located a German-made version (made in 1987) and I'd rather a model with the updated coatings that is sharper (relative to earlier versions of this lens). Would a German-made version of this Summilux in 1987 qualify as a late-made production run?

Thanks,

Erik

[adan]

1) around 1985-1992 for the "new" coatings, just based on observation of Leica M lenses in general that span that era, and how much/little light they reflect depending on actual year of manufacture (how deep and clearly one can "see into" them.

But to some extent it is "constant improvement" rather than some hard cut-off date. And may vary by exact lens model (how popular, how many items/batches made per year, when did Leica get around to new coatings on that particular lens model).

Late-model 135 Tele-Elmar-M (1992 and later, with built-in hood) has different and more effective coatings that my 1988 Tele-Elmar.

2) the coatings do not make the lens "sharper," they just add some contrast and remove some flare (which can be mistaken for "sharper") - and improve the T(ransmission)-stop a bit.

I've noticed my new 135 APO-Telyt f/3.4 (with post-1997 coatings) is technically only 1/2-stop faster than my 1988 (and other pre-1992) Tele-Elmar f/4.0s - but is effectively nearly one stop faster, based on the meter read-out, shutter speeds, and actual images delivered.

Less light gets bounced away by the glass, thus more reaches the film/sensor.

[egrossman]

@adanIs there anyway to tell by the color of the lens coating on the lens whether it is the newer version? Clearly a lens made in 1987 could fall into either category. I guess the fact that it was made in Germany in the late 1980s alone isn't enough to tell.

Erik

[adan]

Not so much the reflected color as the absence of any color (i.e. black - virtually no reflected light at all with multi-coating).

Compare here two pix of their lenses from two users - first is 1990s Germany/Solms v2 35mm Summilux, just below is 1966 v1. A slight difference in how they are lit, but should be enough to distinguish the "look" of single-coating from modern multi-coating.

Of course a 1987 lens may be "in between" these two examples.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by adan

[a.noctilux]

Long time ago, I had for many years the two 35mm Summilux-M titanium coated, but now I use same lenses black anodized (lighter happily ! ).

they are for my (then M6 Ti.) "love" of Ti.

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..

compactness of pre asph.

 

For me with many years of use Ti coated or not, their outputs are the same.

They (pre asph/ asph.) are very different though, in my view each can deliver first class  results (as usual).

 

[pippy]

20 hours ago, BigBabyEarl said:

Yet I understand the titanium pre asph has better contrast. 

From everything which I've ever read or seen (from non-partisan writers) when discussing this topic the 'Titanium' and 'Black-Chrome' lenses from the same era have exactly the same rendering because the internals of both 'colours of paint' lenses were absolutely identical having all been manufactured using exactly the same materials and methods.

If I may quote Andy from his reply in post #11;

"...the coatings do not make the lens "sharper," they just add some contrast and remove some flare (which can be mistaken for "sharper") - and improve the T(ransmission)-stop a bit..."

I'm more than happy to believe that the Titanium lenses (and, of course, B-Chr lenses from the same period) might well have better contrast than those lenses hailing from an earlier age when the coatings were different.

Philip.

 

[lct]

7 hours ago, egrossman said:

I'm curious, do you or anyone else have a sense of what year these coatings were updated? I'm trying to get a better understanding of what "late" in the 35mm Summilux v2 production cycle actually means. I'm in the market for a such a lens and I've located a German-made version (made in 1987) and I'd rather a model with the updated coatings that is sharper (relative to earlier versions of this lens). Would a German-made version of this Summilux in 1987 qualify as a late-made production run?

As far as the Summilux 35/1.4 v2 is concerned, there have been two different coatings at least, a blueish one and a brownish one. You can see them here from 1982 (blue) and 1990 (brown). My German made v2 from 1989 is brownish as well. I don't know when the change occurred exactly though nor if there have been more than one change in the v2's life.   

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[egrossman]

@lctDo you notice much of a difference in how they draw when using them? Per @adancomments I've been looking for a later production version with newer lens coatings.

Thanks

Erik

[lct]

26 minutes ago, egrossman said:

@lctDo you notice much of a difference in how they draw when using them? Per @adancomments I've been looking for a later production version with newer lens coatings.

I don't own the 1982 and 1990 samples i posted above, only a German copy from 1989, but i would not hesitate to choose a late copy. You won't avoid issues like flare or lack of contrast with it but to a lesser extent than earlier copies. 

[roma]

As a side note, the pre-FLE tends to have a pretty loose aperture ring. Sherry Krauter tightened mine as much as she could, but she said it was a common problem with this lens. It helped but not as much as I hoped. 
This was over 15 years ago though. Maybe someone has figured it out by now. 

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Hallo,

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