pilu Posted June 25, 2022 Share #1 Posted June 25, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good morning everyone. I have owned the M11 for about two months now and am very happy with it. Most of the time I shoot in DNG and then develop the files with Capture One or Lightroom or PS. So far so good. Lately, however, I've been shooting only in JPG and I haven't liked the files at all. Perhaps this is a topic that has already been covered on the forum, but I need some advice. How do you find the JPG on the M11? I find them very 'digital', a bit too 'artefactual' and even 'plastic'. I even tried setting the settings (contrast, sharpness) to -2 for all camera presets, including noise reduction to -1 but the result didn't change much...maybe it's just a matter of taste but I actually preferred the JPGs of the M9, M240 and M10. I found them more 'natural' and less 'plastic'. Has anyone experienced the same problem? Do you know if there are any other adjustments to be made in the camera? Thank you for your answers Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 Hi pilu, Take a look here JPG files from camera. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
frame-it Posted June 25, 2022 Share #2 Posted June 25, 2022 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilu Posted June 25, 2022 Author Share #3 Posted June 25, 2022 I thank you Frame-it for the links you posted. There is indeed a lot to read. I still remain a bit disappointed with the in-camera JPEG of the M11, but surely the components that affect the result are different...sensor, lens, megapixels, compression, etc...I will definitely do more tests to understand better but obviously I will continue to shoot in DNG and then process in post. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 25, 2022 Share #4 Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) I do not shoot JPG and have no experience with OP's issue. Can anyone post comparisons with JPGs from M11 and other digital Ms that show the alleged "digital" and "plastic" characteristics? P.S.: I am not saying that OP is wrong or that he must prove his characterization of M11's JPG. The comparison would be solely for my education. Edited June 25, 2022 by SrMi Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted June 25, 2022 Share #5 Posted June 25, 2022 3 hours ago, pilu said: Good morning everyone. I have owned the M11 for about two months now and am very happy with it. Most of the time I shoot in DNG and then develop the files with Capture One or Lightroom or PS. So far so good. Lately, however, I've been shooting only in JPG and I haven't liked the files at all. Perhaps this is a topic that has already been covered on the forum, but I need some advice. How do you find the JPG on the M11? I find them very 'digital', a bit too 'artefactual' and even 'plastic'. I even tried setting the settings (contrast, sharpness) to -2 for all camera presets, including noise reduction to -1 but the result didn't change much...maybe it's just a matter of taste but I actually preferred the JPGs of the M9, M240 and M10. I found them more 'natural' and less 'plastic'. Has anyone experienced the same problem? Do you know if there are any other adjustments to be made in the camera? Thank you for your answers Don't set everything to "-2", just Contrast. I have all my JPEG film sims left at defaults except for this. Changing sharpness and saturation will detract from the output. For b&w, the HC/High Contrast setting at "-2" renders better and with better vignetting character than the NAT/Natural b&w setting, which makes no sense, but it is what it is Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 25, 2022 Share #6 Posted June 25, 2022 11 minutes ago, Mike Colemann said: M10R https://m.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/1022560946/leica-m10-r-sample-gallery/6370546666#&gid=1&pid=37 M11 https://m.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/5902531902/leica-m11-sample-gallery/2494038675#&gid=1&pid=38 Thank you. However, I am not sure that I can observe a difference with scenes and light being different. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 25, 2022 Share #7 Posted June 25, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just now, Mike Colemann said: I wish people did all their shooting in a camera testing lab. 😂 I am all for believing in certain qualities without "proof" from lab testing (that includes audio equipment). Since I have both cameras, I could test myself, using natural scenes (no color charts 😁). Maybe when I come back from my trip. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 25, 2022 Share #8 Posted June 25, 2022 9 minutes ago, Mike Colemann said: Do that. This is the 4th thread about it and reading through them you’re in all of them all over it replying to everyone in a mania. I understand it’s a big investment and you want to defend your camera. But as they say, where there’s smoke…. If you’re happy with your M11 results then just ignore these threads instead of always replying to them again and again instigating fights. 2 out of the last 3 threads about this, the OP’s were banned. I wish I could screen shot all your comments on all those threads about the M11 JPEGs. It’s pretty embarrassing.. Maybe it’s time to stop talking about this and let it be what it is. 🤷🏻♂️ .. some like the M11 and some hate it. Great. NEXT! Like I said, shoot raw and edit to taste. End of conversation. You misunderstood what I wrote. In this thread, I am not defending M11 as I have no opinion about the JPGs generated by digital M cameras. I am not saying that the OP is wrong about M11 JPG files looking digital and plastic. Since I never shoot with JPGs, I have no idea how JPGs from M10 vs. M11 would compare. But I am interested in learning about the difference. Until I have heard differently, I believe the OP is correct. The threads mentioned in #2 are unrelated to the topic unless the topic is "Bash the M11", which OP did not intend. One thread was started by a troll who has been trying to sabotage this forum repeatedly. One thread was a vague diatribe (also about RAWs), and one thread (the only reasonable one, IMO) compared M11's JPGs with M11's raw and showed an issue, though the same troll tried to sabotage it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilu Posted June 25, 2022 Author Share #9 Posted June 25, 2022 Sorry, my intention was not to trigger debates and controversies (this always happens!) But sincerely to understand the reason why the JPG files of the M11 (8500 euros) are so artificial and artifacts compared to the previous M versions and if there are adjustments in the camera what can I do to improve them. Mike Colemann, I know for myself that I can shoot in RAW and edit at will, thanks! But I came to this by myself to understand. It's amazing how 99% out of 100 in forums always move the question somewhere else! Anyway thanks to everyone. Hdmesa, I will treasure your advice! 😉 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 25, 2022 Share #10 Posted June 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, pilu said: Sorry, my intention was not to trigger debates and controversies (this always happens!) But sincerely to understand the reason why the JPG files of the M11 (8500 euros) are so artificial and artifacts compared to the previous M versions and if there are adjustments in the camera what can I do to improve them. Mike Colemann, I know for myself that I can shoot in RAW and edit at will, thanks! But I came to this by myself to understand. It's amazing how 99% out of 100 in forums always move the question somewhere else! Anyway thanks to everyone. Hdmesa, I will treasure your advice! 😉 Don’t apologise. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 25, 2022 Share #11 Posted June 25, 2022 47 minutes ago, pilu said: Sorry, my intention was not to trigger debates and controversies (this always happens!) But sincerely to understand the reason why the JPG files of the M11 (8500 euros) are so artificial and artifacts compared to the previous M versions and if there are adjustments in the camera what can I do to improve them. Mike Colemann, I know for myself that I can shoot in RAW and edit at will, thanks! But I came to this by myself to understand. It's amazing how 99% out of 100 in forums always move the question somewhere else! Anyway thanks to everyone. Hdmesa, I will treasure your advice! 😉 Non need to apologize, your intentions were clear and non-confrontational. Thank you for raising the issue and participating in the forum. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilu Posted June 25, 2022 Author Share #12 Posted June 25, 2022 Grazie a tutti. Ho sempre imparato qualcosa dai forum e dal confronto pacifico 🙂 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 26, 2022 Share #13 Posted June 26, 2022 5 hours ago, pilu said: But sincerely to understand the reason why the JPG files of the M11 (8500 euros) are so artificial and artifacts compared to the previous M versions [...] I've yet to see a digital M with acceptable jpegs but i don't pay Leica prices for that. Now i use jpegs for archival purpose and i have not noticed the artifacts you mention so far. I am not interested enough to do side by side comparos between jpeg files though to be honest so i may be wrong . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted June 28, 2022 Share #14 Posted June 28, 2022 I've almost never considered shooting JPG files with any of my camera gear, but just had to now out of curiosity. Ouch. Some heavy handed noise reduction and wide radius sharpening. Very plastic. 🤢 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 28, 2022 Share #15 Posted June 28, 2022 37 minutes ago, hmzimelka said: I've almost never considered shooting JPG files with any of my camera gear, but just had to now out of curiosity. Ouch. Some heavy handed noise reduction and wide radius sharpening. Very plastic. 🤢 What are your JPG settings (noise reduction, sharpening, etc.)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted June 28, 2022 Share #16 Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, SrMi said: What are your JPG settings (noise reduction, sharpening, etc.)? Noise Reduction is 0 Film Style Natural with Contrast -2, Sharpness 0, Saturation 0. I'll have to try setting Noise Reduction to -1. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted June 28, 2022 Share #17 Posted June 28, 2022 6 hours ago, hmzimelka said: I've almost never considered shooting JPG files with any of my camera gear, but just had to now out of curiosity. Ouch. Some heavy handed noise reduction and wide radius sharpening. Very plastic. 🤢 If you really want to see a disaster, try adding sharpness to the JPEG settings. Absolutely terrible — looks like a 3-year old processed them. Not at all like every other Leica camera where it actually just makes things a bit more sharp without whatever the heck the M11 has going on. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted June 28, 2022 Share #18 Posted June 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, hdmesa said: If you really want to see a disaster, try adding sharpness to the JPEG settings. Absolutely terrible — looks like a 3-year old processed them. Not at all like every other Leica camera where it actually just makes things a bit more sharp without whatever the heck the M11 has going on. I tried some sharpness settings and also noise set all the way down. Noise control is still too high for the lowest setting of -1. But yeah, the sharpening is pure madness. Halos galore. Cannot or should not be used, imho. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted June 28, 2022 Share #19 Posted June 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, hmzimelka said: I tried some sharpness settings and also noise set all the way down. Noise control is still too high for the lowest setting of -1. But yeah, the sharpening is pure madness. Halos galore. Cannot or should not be used, imho. Either they had an inexperienced engineer(s) write the M11 JPEG firmware – or they are using crude methods intentionally to speed up the processing, because 60mp res. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted June 28, 2022 Share #20 Posted June 28, 2022 Please report to Leica, thank you! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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