Leica serie 0 nr. 116

[FPangrazi]

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Dear friends,
only yesterday I was able to read the whole discussion revolved around the sale of the Leica 105 and its historical vicissitudes.
So what about the Nullserie 116 also sold at a record price in 2012?
Without revealing other details, I would ask you to compare the photos of the 116 as it appeared in 1995 and as it was sold at the Vienna auction in May of May and 2012 ......

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[sabears]

I read "...all parts including the paintwork are original..." 

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[wizard]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb FPangrazi:

I would ask you to compare the photos of the 116 as it appeared in 1995 and as it was sold at the Vienna auction in May of May and 2012

Are the photos shown in your post from 1995 or as sold in 2012?

[willeica]

9 hours ago, FPangrazi said:

Dear friends,
only yesterday I was able to read the whole discussion revolved around the sale of the Leica 105 and its historical vicissitudes.
So what about the Nullserie 116 also sold at a record price in 2012?
Without revealing other details, I would ask you to compare the photos of the 116 as it appeared in 1995 and as it was sold at the Vienna auction in May of May and 2012 ......

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Mr Michaely spoke well of you when I met him after the recent auction.

Your post is somewhat cryptic, so let's try to break it down.

Was the 1995 photo of the camera as it actually was back then or when it had been stripped down?

The main 'additional' parts in the 2012 photo, that I can observe, are the shutter button and the slit width dial. Are you saying that these were not original or just that they were not on the camera in 1995? Are there any other differences?

Have you asked Ottmar about the two photos and any apparent differences as he is probably the only person who can explain them? If the parts were added, what was their source? 

I notice that in both sets of photos the Galilean finder has the wire cross frame as mentioned by van Hasbroeck and Lars Netopil.

I'd be interested in your further comments.

William 

Edited June 21, 2022 by willeica

[Anbaric]

Nr 116 seems to have acquired a lens bezel and a captive cap too...

[willeica]

4 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Nr 116 seems to have acquired a lens bezel and a captive cap too...

My question about strip down would cover these points also.

William 

[beoon]

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In Volume 1 of Jim Lagers book (published in 1993) number 116 is shown on page 12 with the folding viewfinder. The text states it was in the Leica Museum at the time of this photograph.

Having followed the other posts regarding the recent sale of 105 I agree 100% with William Fagan that it would be good to record what we know about these historical cameras.

I received an email from Leica Fotografie and they mention that 105 was sold to someone in Asia and it is unlikely to be seen again. I was thinking about starting a new post to record from a purely historical perspective what is known about these cameras before it is too late.

It is not a case of who paid what and making any judgements, just recording what is known about these historical cameras (past & present)

I hesitated because my Leica books and literature are not accessible at the moment since our house is being refurbished.

What do other people think about this and would they contribute what we know about these cameras?

Alan

 

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Edited June 21, 2022 by beoon

[pippy]

Before we go much further with any speculation can we establish with any degree of accuracy when the photographs shown in the OP were actually taken? They might have been published in 1995 but it could be the case that they date from an era further back in time. When was the photograph shown in post #7 taken?

The differences - both large-scale and small-scale - are so numerous that, were these Leicas not so well documented, it could almost seem like we are comparing two different cameras.

Just a thought.

Philip.

Edited June 21, 2022 by pippy

[Anbaric]

When and in what context? As William implies it might, for example, be a photo documenting a stripdown, or the 'missing' parts may have been preserved with the camera but were for some other reason not installed at the time. It's not as if a previous owner could in this case have just grabbed them from a Leica I parts bin. They are either original (as the sales blurb states) or part of a custom restoration.

[willeica]

27 minutes ago, beoon said:

In Volume 1 of Jim Lagers book (published in 1993) number 116 is shown on page 12 with the folding viewfinder. The text states it was in the Leica Museum at the time of this photograph.

Having followed the other posts regarding the recent sale of 105 I agree 100% with William Fagan that it would be good to record what we know about these historical cameras.

I received an email from Leica Fotografie and they mention that 105 was sold to someone in Asia and it is unlikely to be seen again. I was thinking about starting a new post to record from a purely historical perspective what is known about these cameras before it is too late.

It is not a case of who paid what and making any judgements, just recording what is known about these historical cameras (past & present)

I hesitated because my Leica books and literature are not accessible at the moment since our house is being refurbished.

What do other people think about this and would they contribute what we know about these cameras?

Alan

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

15 minutes ago, pippy said:

Before we go much further with any speculation can we establish with any degree of accuracy when the photographs shown in the OP were actually taken? They might have been published in 1995 but it could be the case that they date from an era further back in time. When was the photograph shown in post #7 taken?

The differences - both large-scale and small-scale - are so numerous that, were these Leicas not so well documented, it could almost seem like we are comparing two different cameras.

Just a thought.

Philip.

The 0 Series was a group of prototypes which were not sold, but were used to develop the camera over a period of time. They were changed as they went in and out of the factory. No two are exactly the same and , perhaps, apart from No 122, none are in 'original condition'. This criterion of 'original condition' which is often used in connection with production series camera does not really apply in respect of the early history of these cameras. A lot of the debate here relates to what happened to these cameras in later years and whether parts were replaced.

The people who can really relate what has happened to these cameras in most recent years are the real experts such as Jim Lager, Lars Netopil and Ottmar Michaely, all of whom have either handled, photographed and, in the case of Ottmar, actually worked on most of the surviving cameras. Speculation based on a series of photos taken over a period of time will not give any degree of certainty as to what actually happened. The OP's name came up while I was in Wetzlar and it would be useful if he gave some more information rather than just posting old photos of what looks like a stripped down camera.

Alan's idea of a 'stud book' for the 0 Series has a certain amount of attraction, but the only ones who could even remotely write such a tome would be one of the 3 gentlemen mentioned above and, perhaps, one or two others. The few surviving cameras are scattered throughout the world, some in bank vaults, so, access to examine the present condition of the cameras might be something of an issue.

Possibly of more interest to readers here would be a proper English translation and 'updating' of Angela von Einem's book on the I Series with Elmar and variations. At least those cameras are somewhat within the reach of many readers here, unlike the 0 Series.

I await further material or enlightenment from Mr Pangrazi.

William 

[pippy]

Thank you, William, and I assure you that I am fairly familiar with the general outline/history of the 0 Series. My point was that if we are being asked;

"...to compare the photos of the 116 as it appeared in 1995 and as it was sold at the Vienna auction in May of May and 2012..."...

...then I don't understand the point of the excercise if the chronology of the photographs we (I?) are being asked to compare is not known/stated. If this information is known then it would be wonderful were it to be shared in this thread because it would then be possible to put certain things in some proper 'time-frame' perspective.

Hope that makes sense?

Philip.

[Matlock]

10 hours ago, beoon said:

 

I received an email from Leica Fotografie and they mention that 105 was sold to someone in Asia and it is unlikely to be seen again. I was thinking about starting a new post to record from a purely historical perspective what is known about these cameras before it is too late.

It is not a case of who paid what and making any judgements, just recording what is known about these historical cameras (past & present)

 

Alan

 

 

I fully agree Alan. Also, if we have that info it would be of help to me, should I see one for sale at my local flea market for £5, to decide if it is genuine or not 😆. On a serious note it would be really helpful to know just how many are known about and how many remain a mystery as there are so many conflicting statements regarding the numbers.

[FPangrazi]

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The Leica Nullserie N ° 116, photographed by Gianni Rogliatti

Please excuse my inaccurate English.............

In May 2012, one of the 25 Leica "Nullserie" cameras was sold to the auction house in Vienna, one of those very rare models, produced between 1923 and 1924, which Leitz used to test the market.  The sale, worth over two million euros, caused a lot of astonishment around the world.  Web, newspapers and televisions from all over the planet have reported the news of the highest amount ever paid for a camera.

Long before this happened, thanks to the confidences of my friend Gianni Rogliatti, I had the opportunity to collect unpublished information regarding the Leica Nullserie device with serial number 116, that is the same one that was awarded in the millionaire auction.

Rogliatti came across this device in 1980, when in one of his visits to the Leitz in Wetzlar, he discovered that the Leica nº116 Nullserie was kept in the "Leica-School", the room used as a classroom where new users and technicians were educated Leica.

The device was deliberately exhibited completely disassembled to give students the opportunity to analyze the internal mechanical parts of one of the first Leica produced.

A device, therefore, that since its construction was always used internally and, as stated on the delivery ledger, was never sold to any agency.

As Rogliatti told me at length, before his death in March 2012, the discovery fascinated him very much and as for other similar requests, he received the consent from the Leitz management, to bring the Leica 116 prototype with him to Turin (Italy) where he would had a chance to study it carefully and photograph each carefully

In addition to being a great journalist and a great Leica expert, Rogliatti was also a skilled photo repairer.  In his Turin home, after having photographed each part of the historic Leica device individually, he was able to assemble it under the same factory conditions.

The careful analysis of the prototype and the photographic documentation provided the starting point for Gianni to write a detailed article for the magazine in the 1983 issue of "LA LEICA" created by himself.

LEICA magazine from 1983

Grateful to the concession of Rogliatti, below I reproduce the entire writing and re production

 

[FPangrazi]

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[willeica]

9 hours ago, pippy said:

Thank you, William, and I assure you that I am fairly familiar with the general outline/history of the 0 Series. My point was that if we are being asked;

"...to compare the photos of the 116 as it appeared in 1995 and as it was sold at the Vienna auction in May of May and 2012..."...

...then I don't understand the point of the excercise if the chronology of the photographs we (I?) are being asked to compare is not known/stated. If this information is known then it would be wonderful were it to be shared in this thread because it would then be possible to put certain things in some proper 'time-frame' perspective.

Hope that makes sense?

Philip.

Thanks Philip. That does makes sense. I know that most people here, such as yourself, know the history and nature of the 0 Series. As ever, I was just contextualising my response. Two photographs of the same camera taken at different times mean are but circumstantial. If anyone wants to ascertain what has been done to the camera they need to go to the experts, including those who may have worked on the camera. i believe that the OP knows Mr Michaely who worked on the No 116 camera before the Westlicht Auction and he can ask him directly.

5 minutes ago, Matlock said:

I fully agree Alan. Also, if we have that info it would be of help to me, should I see one for sale at my local flea market for £5, to decide if it is genuine or not 😆. On a serious note it would be really helpful to know just how many are known about and how many remain a mystery as there are so many conflicting statements regarding the numbers.

One question which I got from a very well known and established camera collector yesterday was whether the price paid for No 105 will be a rising tide which will raise the price of all collector cameras. I told him that given the scale of the increment ( about 6 times the previous record) the price has to be regarded as an exception and only time will tell if the general prices would rise.

5 minutes ago, FPangrazi said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The Leica Nullserie N ° 116, photographed by Gianni Rogliatti

Please excuse my inaccurate English.............

In May 2012, one of the 25 Leica "Nullserie" cameras was sold to the auction house in Vienna, one of those very rare models, produced between 1923 and 1924, which Leitz used to test the market.  The sale, worth over two million euros, caused a lot of astonishment around the world.  Web, newspapers and televisions from all over the planet have reported the news of the highest amount ever paid for a camera.

Long before this happened, thanks to the confidences of my friend Gianni Rogliatti, I had the opportunity to collect unpublished information regarding the Leica Nullserie device with serial number 116, that is the same one that was awarded in the millionaire auction.

Rogliatti came across this device in 1980, when in one of his visits to the Leitz in Wetzlar, he discovered that the Leica nº116 Nullserie was kept in the "Leica-School", the room used as a classroom where new users and technicians were educated Leica.

The device was deliberately exhibited completely disassembled to give students the opportunity to analyze the internal mechanical parts of one of the first Leica produced.

A device, therefore, that since its construction was always used internally and, as stated on the delivery ledger, was never sold to any agency.

As Rogliatti told me at length, before his death in March 2012, the discovery fascinated him very much and as for other similar requests, he received the consent from the Leitz management, to bring the Leica 116 prototype with him to Turin (Italy) where he would had a chance to study it carefully and photograph each carefully

In addition to being a great journalist and a great Leica expert, Rogliatti was also a skilled photo repairer.  In his Turin home, after having photographed each part of the historic Leica device individually, he was able to assemble it under the same factory conditions.

The careful analysis of the prototype and the photographic documentation provided the starting point for Gianni to write a detailed article for the magazine in the 1983 issue of "LA LEICA" created by himself.

LEICA magazine from 1983

Grateful to the concession of Rogliatti, below I reproduce the entire writing and re production

 

 

Thanks. Bill Rosauer (derleicman on the Forum) was one of the pupils at the Leica School who handled a 0 Series, which may have been this camera. Getting permission to take away a 0 Series, to work on it, would not happen today, but I have heard several similar stories from the 'old days'. So the photo of No 116 above was one of the camera stripped down as I surmised.  Given the age of these cameras, it is highly likely that they were worked on several times during their lifetime. Today, given the value of such items, it is more likely that they will only be worked on in very controlled environments. Ottmar Michaely told me that he was retiring and that he had sold his workshop tools and spare parts to Leitz Auction who will base them in Vienna where he is training some very skilled young men (one of whom I have met is a former watch technician) who will work on the cameras coming up at the Leitz Auction. Among the items of equipment Ottmar has used is an F Deckel milling machine from the makers of the Compur shutter, which is regarded as the finest of its type ever made. Leica still uses such machines today. The good news is that that Ottmar is passing on his skills to another very young (even younger than my grandson!) generation of technicians. 

William 

[FPangrazi]

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Le fotografie scattate in quella circostanza dei vari pezzi, accostati tra loro, completavano una vista esplosa dell'apparato. La realizzazione fotografica fu utilizzata anni dopo per illustrare la pag. 40 del suo libro "I primi 70 anni" del 1995. Dopo mesi, terminata la ricerca di alcuni Gianni, l'auto è stata restituita alla successiva visita a Wetzlar. Rogliatti, pensava che sicuramente la direzione Leitz gli sarebbe stata grata per aver restituito l'unità perfettamente assemblata. Le sue aspettative sono state ignorate e gli è stato unità richiesta di smontare nuovamente l' quando è stata consegnata.Prima di compiere questa operazione, Rogliatti mi ha confidato di aver tentato senza successo di avanzare all'immobile la richiesta per poter acquistare l'ambita fotografica. La macchina, una volta smontata, è stata adottata dal museo interno della fabbrica. 

It was after the publication of his last book in 1995, that Rogliatti was again asked about the Leica Nullserie 116 by a new buyer who, certainly with good arguments, managed to buy it.  Unfortunately the new owner, in the process of completing the assembly, realized that he was not in possession of all the parts to carry out the complete assembly;  many parts were missing, perhaps lost in the factory by frequent manipulations.  On this occasion Rogliatti was consulted, believing that he had forgotten to return some parts of the camera.  Completely unrelated (... and even a little irritated) to the fate of the missing pieces, Rogliatti made himself available to the new buyer anyway.  He also had the opportunity to analyze and document what remained of the famous device but was unable to provide any help.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by FPangrazi

[FPangrazi]

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[derleicaman]

10 hours ago, willeica said:

Thanks Philip. That does makes sense. I know that most people here, such as yourself, know the history and nature of the 0 Series. As ever, I was just contextualising my response. Two photographs of the same camera taken at different times mean are but circumstantial. If anyone wants to ascertain what has been done to the camera they need to go to the experts, including those who may have worked on the camera. i believe that the OP knows Mr Michaely who worked on the No 116 camera before the Westlicht Auction and he can ask him directly.

One question which I got from a very well known and established camera collector yesterday was whether the price paid for No 105 will be a rising tide which will raise the price of all collector cameras. I told him that given the scale of the increment ( about 6 times the previous record) the price has to be regarded as an exception and only time will tell if the general prices would rise.

Thanks. Bill Rosauer (derleicman on the Forum) was one of the pupils at the Leica School who handled a 0 Series, which may have been this camera. Getting permission to take away a 0 Series, to work on it, would not happen today, but I have heard several similar stories from the 'old days'. So the photo of No 116 above was one of the camera stripped down as I surmised.  Given the age of these cameras, it is highly likely that they were worked on several times during their lifetime. Today, given the value of such items, it is more likely that they will only be worked on in very controlled environments. Ottmar Michaely told me that he was retiring and that he had sold his workshop tools and spare parts to Leitz Auction who will base them in Vienna where he is training some very skilled young men (one of whom I have met is a former watch technician) who will work on the cameras coming up at the Leitz Auction. Among the items of equipment Ottmar has used is an F Deckel milling machine from the makers of the Compur shutter, which is regarded as the finest of its type ever made. Leica still uses such machines today. The good news is that that Ottmar is passing on his skills to another very young (even younger than my grandson!) generation of technicians. 

William 

Hello William, no the camera I had in my bare hands (no white gloves!) on three separate occasions, was the Ur, not one of the Null Series cameras. A that time, everyone in the classes knew how important the Ur was, but not so sure a Null Series would have had quite the same impact. These three occasions were over a time span of 15+ years, the first time in 1973 and the other two times in the 80's. Now that I think of it, my wife was with at one of the Leica Akademies in the 80's and probably held the Ur as well. I'm sure it made no impression on her! Now, the Ur only comes out on special occasions, and then with an armed guard present!

I have also hears that the Ur was brought over to the US for several LHSA meetings, wrapped up in a sock and put in a gym bag as carry on. I was probably in attendance for some of these occasions, but memory fails me at this time. The point it, these now priceless artifacts were treated in a much more casual fashion in years past. That's the way he world was not so long ago!

Edited June 22, 2022 by derleicaman

[willeica]

1 hour ago, derleicaman said:

Hello William, no the camera I had in my bare hands (no white gloves!) on three separate occasions, was the Ur, not one of the Null Series cameras. A that time, everyone in the classes knew how important the Ur was, but not so sure a Null Series would have had quite the same impact. These three occasions were over a time span of 15+ years, the first time in 1973 and the other two times in the 80's. Now that I think of it, my wife was with at one of the Leica Akademies in the 80's and probably held the Ur as well. I'm sure it made no impression on her! Now, the Ur only comes out on special occasions, and then with an armed guard present!

I have also hears that the Ur was brought over to the US for several LHSA meetings, wrapped up in a sock and put in a gym bag as carry on. I was probably in attendance for some of these occasions, but memory fails me at this time. The point it, these now priceless artifacts were treated in a much more casual fashion in years past. That's the way he world was not so long ago!

Sorry about the mix up, Bill. You would have had multiples of 14.4 million Euro value of No 105 in your hands then. I heard about the sock and gym bag incident, though. 

11 hours ago, FPangrazi said:

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I see the same camera in these 3 photos, with the first being in a stripped down condition. I'm not sure what we are supposed to interpret from this. Can you enlighten us? 

12 hours ago, FPangrazi said:

Le fotografie scattate in quella circostanza dei vari pezzi, accostati tra loro, completavano una vista esplosa dell'apparato. La realizzazione fotografica fu utilizzata anni dopo per illustrare la pag. 40 del suo libro "I primi 70 anni" del 1995. Dopo mesi, terminata la ricerca di alcuni Gianni, l'auto è stata restituita alla successiva visita a Wetzlar. Rogliatti, pensava che sicuramente la direzione Leitz gli sarebbe stata grata per aver restituito l'unità perfettamente assemblata. Le sue aspettative sono state ignorate e gli è stato unità richiesta di smontare nuovamente l' quando è stata consegnata.Prima di compiere questa operazione, Rogliatti mi ha confidato di aver tentato senza successo di avanzare all'immobile la richiesta per poter acquistare l'ambita fotografica. La macchina, una volta smontata, è stata adottata dal museo interno della fabbrica. 

It was after the publication of his last book in 1995, that Rogliatti was again asked about the Leica Nullserie 116 by a new buyer who, certainly with good arguments, managed to buy it.  Unfortunately the new owner, in the process of completing the assembly, realized that he was not in possession of all the parts to carry out the complete assembly;  many parts were missing, perhaps lost in the factory by frequent manipulations.  On this occasion Rogliatti was consulted, believing that he had forgotten to return some parts of the camera.  Completely unrelated (... and even a little irritated) to the fate of the missing pieces, Rogliatti made himself available to the new buyer anyway.  He also had the opportunity to analyze and document what remained of the famous device but was unable to provide any help.

 

 

This is all a bit confusing. Are you saying that after Rogliatti's strip down, someone else bought the camera and that parts were missing which were not missing when Rogliatti did his strip down? Have I got that right ? I'm not sure where this is leading. As regards 2012 you could go to Ottmar and ask him what he found. 

The 2012 auction listing reads as follows

"The camera is in excellent and fully working condition (a small missing piece of leather on the side has been replaced with contemporary vulcanite by Ottmar Michaely), all parts including the paintwork are original, with the matching lens cover, the folding finder has been replaced by the later Galilean finder as usual. "

Presumably this was based on a strip down examination by Ottmar.

William 

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