M2 with M3 Frame Counter

[DoubleE]

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A friend has offered to sell me M2 - 1006 145 with fresh CLA at a very reasonable price.  Somehow this camera has an M3 frame counter, a feature which appeals to me because it will load exactly like my primary film body which is an M3, but it will have the M2 rangefinder.  Could this be a factory installed option, or possibly a special order item from Leitz, or is it some kind of aftermarket job?  I'm hoping someone here has the experience and knowledge to advise me.  From the photos it looks pretty original, or if not, very professionally done.  I'm interested in the camera because it's an affordable user and happens to suit my workflow, but I was hoping to find out if it's actually a rather unique and special thing or more of an oddity, in which case I might be overpaying.  Please forgive the hasty photos--done by my friend, not me.

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Edited June 14, 2022 by DoubleE
typo

[rfaspen]

That's neat!  Sorry I don't have any insight though.  I'm curious too.

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[TomB_tx]

The M3 counter resets when the take-up spool is pulled off the shaft, while the similar-looking M4 (and later) counter resets when the bottom cover is removed. You might check to see which way this one resets. If it's the M4 type it might indicate a later rework, after the M3 production stopped.

[jc_braconi]

The window are from the M2 shape but how they make the counter outside and inside ?

Never seen before, very interesting.

[jerzy]

unusual indeed. It is doable but it is not trivial. M2 top cover has a hole for a screw in the place where film counter window is. Hole is however smaller, so you would need to make it bigger. Furthermore you need the whole film transport mechanism, including film counter and axis for take up spool. Doable but complicated and I do not know why someone would like to do it. Rather then it is possible that someone built the camera from the parts which he had and adopted top cover for film counter window

[M9reno]

M4 prototype?

[250swb]

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51 minutes ago, M9reno said:

M4 prototype?

In 1960, according to the serial number?

[earleygallery]

4 hours ago, jerzy said:

unusual indeed. It is doable but it is not trivial. M2 top cover has a hole for a screw in the place where film counter window is. Hole is however smaller, so you would need to make it bigger. Furthermore you need the whole film transport mechanism, including film counter and axis for take up spool. Doable but complicated and I do not know why someone would like to do it. Rather then it is possible that someone built the camera from the parts which he had and adopted top cover for film counter window

Possibly an M2 top plate, from a parts camera, modified with an 'M3 counter window' and stuck onto an (damaged top plate) M3?

Edited June 14, 2022 by earleygallery

[Anbaric]

7 hours ago, DoubleE said:

Could this be a factory installed option, or possibly a special order item from Leitz, or is it some kind of aftermarket job?

You could ask info@leica-camera.com if they have any relevant information on this one. Last year I got a helpful response in a few days when asking about the original delivery records of a Leica from the 1930s.

[DoubleE]

2 hours ago, earleygallery said:

Possibly an M2 top plate, from a parts camera, modified with an 'M3 counter window' and stuck onto an (damaged top plate) M3?

Pretty much what Sherry Krauter (who did the CLA) told me today.  She has no idea how the top plate came to be, though.  She also told me it was the personal camera of a camera tech, now deceased, so we can't ask him about it, but he had access to parts and to the factory.  I notice that there is no bezel around the lens release button, another M2 feature, and that's on the body shell.  Film advance and shutter release are about the smoothest I've handled on an M camera, and it makes a lot of sense to me personally to have this feature set, plus it was priced right, so after much deliberation and seconds thoughts, I bought it.

[earleygallery]

5 minutes ago, DoubleE said:

Pretty much what Sherry Krauter (who did the CLA) told me today.  She has no idea how the top plate came to be, though.  She also told me it was the personal camera of a camera tech, now deceased, so we can't ask him about it, but he had access to parts and to the factory.  I notice that there is no bezel around the lens release button, another M2 feature, and that's on the body shell.  Film advance and shutter release are about the smoothest I've handled on an M camera, and it makes a lot of sense to me personally to have this feature set, plus it was priced right, so after much deliberation and seconds thoughts, I bought it.

Well it's certainly unique! Could she tell if the internals were from an M3? (I think also that the serial number is engraved inside chassis, and should of course match the top plate, although maybe that's just on the earlier cameras).

[DoubleE]

45 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

Well it's certainly unique! Could she tell if the internals were from an M3? (I think also that the serial number is engraved inside chassis, and should of course match the top plate, although maybe that's just on the earlier cameras).

She said the internals are M3.  Late model so no internal number.

I will email Leica, just on the off chance they have some record of it.

[Anbaric]

I guess you can now confirm it has an M2 rangefinder? I can see what looks like the M2-style Fresnel frameline illuminator window, but I suppose that comes attached to the M2 top cover anyway?

Edited June 14, 2022 by Anbaric

[frame-it]

so..its an M3 with an M2 top plate?

 

[DoubleE]

3 minutes ago, frame-it said:

so..its an M3 with an M2 top plate?

 

Yes and no, because it has the M3 frame counter window on what is otherwise an m2 top plate and rangefinder.  Also the body cover is M2 style, with no bezel on the lens release.

[frame-it]

15 minutes ago, DoubleE said:

Yes and no, because it has the M3 frame counter window on what is otherwise an m2 top plate and rangefinder.  Also the body cover is M2 style, with no bezel on the lens release.

cool..so its basically an M3 with a few bits of an M2

 

[DoubleE]

frame-it, yes basically an M3 with M2 rangefinder and framelines, and most of the stylistic changes that came with the M2 (except manual frame counter).  My original question:  Some sort of very well executed "Frankencamera"  or something partly or completely ordered from Leitz?   Most likely the former from the responses so far.

I'm, ok with that, it was priced accordingly and happens to suit my wants pretty perfectly.

Edited June 15, 2022 by DoubleE

[jc_braconi]

Apart the counter it is a M2 look at the body and the front windows have not the border around typically of  the M3.
Look more a Venuscamera than a Franken one 😄

[wizard]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb DoubleE:

Also the body cover is M2 style, with no bezel on the lens release.

The very last one or two batches of M3 cameras (serial numbers 1 115 xxx and 1 116 xxx) did not have that bezel around the lens release either. So your camera could in fact be a very late M3 with an M2 finder and top plate. I like it a lot! Lucky you.

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Hallo,

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[nitroplait]

It is a meaningful modification IMO. I always forget to zero my M2 counter. It is a really cool camera.