Leica m-p viewfinder frame lines

[Nino]

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Quick question guys , i am 28mm film shooter considering getting a leica mp within few days does the 28mm frame lines are included on 0.72 or should i get a 0.58 viewfinder? 
Thank you!

[Matlock]

5 minutes ago, Nino said:

Quick question guys , i am 28mm film shooter considering getting a leica mp within few days does the 28mm frame lines are included on 0.72 or should i get a 0.58 viewfinder? 
Thank you!

If you shoot mainly with the 28mm lens definitely get the 0.58 viewfinder. (the 28mm frame lines are included with the 0.72 finder though).

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[Vlad Soare]

Yes, they are included, but they are only visible if you stick your eye directly against the viewfinder (no glasses) and move it around. For all intents and purposes you can consider the entire viewfinder as being the 28mm field of view.
My wife uses an MP with a 28mm lens and she's very happy with it.

 

[Huss]

I have the MP w the .58 frame lines, as well as other Ms with the .72 and .91.  100% get the .58 if you are planning on mainly using a 28mm lens.  I also find it is better than the .72 for 35mm lenses as it feels 'just right'.

[logan2z]

Is the .58 an option on the M-A/MP today?  I thought the .72 was the only available VF now that the ALC program was gone, but I could be wrong.

[Vlad Soare]

6 minutes ago, logan2z said:

Is the .58 an option on the M-A/MP today?  I thought the .72 was the only available VF now that the ALC program was gone, but I could be wrong.

Not exactly an option in the sense that you can purchase the camera with it, like you could in the good old days. But after you buy it you can send it back to Leica to have a .58 or .85 installed.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Vlad Soare

[250swb]

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I think you could look at it the other way around. The .58 finder makes the 28mm frame perfect, but all the others are compromised, subjects start to look like a little lonely pea on a large plate. Whereas if you can see the 28mm frames with a .72 viewfinder all the other frame lines aren't compromised, you get a good level of magnification. So compromise one or compromise the other five?

I wear spectacles and I can see three of four 28mm frame lines with the .72 finder, and a quick eye scan shows where the fourth is. You get used to doing a fast scan around the frame to compose the picture if you need to, but when you know your lens you know instinctively what will be in the framed by the camera.

[Vlad Soare]

29 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I think you could look at it the other way around. The .58 finder makes the 28mm frame perfect, but all the others are compromised, subjects start to look like a little lonely pea on a large plate. Whereas if you can see the 28mm frames with a .72 viewfinder all the other frame lines aren't compromised, you get a good level of magnification. So compromise one or compromise the other five?

Good point. That's why I decided against having a.85 installed in my M-A, although I would have loved it with my 75mm lens. But it would have made my other lens, a 35mm, more difficult to use, and it would have ruled out the possibility of adding a 28mm to my line-up în the future, should I ever want to (yes, I know there are external finders, but I don't like them). I think the.72 is the best compromise, all things considered.

[earleygallery]

19 minutes ago, Vlad Soare said:

I think the.72 is the best compromise, all things considered.

Which is probably why the vast majority of M's have it.

[logan2z]

5 hours ago, Vlad Soare said:

Not exactly an option in the sense that you can purchase the camera with it, like you could in the good old days. But after you buy it you can send it back to Leica to have a .58 or .85 installed.

 

I'll never understand why Leica requires one to buy the camera, take delivery of it, then send it back to Germany to fit the VF they could have fit from the start.  If they can do the custom work after the fact, why not just do it from the beginning and save the customer the headache of shipping the camera all over the world?  I'm sure they have their reasons, but it seems way more complicated (and expensive) than it needs to be.

Edited June 14, 2022 by logan2z

[earleygallery]

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[Huss]

Nino, not sure where you live but if you are in the LA USA area you can check mine out to see which finder works best for you.  Or you could call your closest Leica shop/carrier and see if they have any you could check.

[Vlad Soare]

6 hours ago, logan2z said:

I'll never understand why Leica requires one to buy the camera, take delivery of it, then send it back to Germany to fit the VF they could have fit from the start.  If they can do the custom work after the fact, why not just do it from the beginning and save the customer the headache of shipping the camera all over the world?  I'm sure they have their reasons, but it seems way more complicated (and expensive) than it needs to be.

Because stocking a special, not very sought out, version of a camera that's already in low demand to begin with would not make much business sense. Most users find the 0.72 just fine and would struggle to use a 0.52. So in the end that camera would either sit on a shelf for years, waiting for a wide-angle shooter to buy it, or someone would buy it and would send it back to Leica to have a .72 installed, which gets us back where we started from.

It's the same story with other such expensive, small run, hand-made products. Montblanc, for instance, offers a wide range of nib sizes for its exquisite fountain pens, but you can only find fine and medium in stock. Because that's what most people use. If you want an extra-fine, or a double broad, or an oblique, you have to buy the pen and send it to Montblanc for a nib replacement (which they do for free, and quite fast at that). 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Vlad Soare

[Helge]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb logan2z:

I'll never understand why Leica requires one to buy the camera, take delivery of it, then send it back to Germany to fit the VF they could have fit from the start.  If they can do the custom work after the fact, why not just do it from the beginning and save the customer the headache of shipping the camera all over the world?  I'm sure they have their reasons, but it seems way more complicated (and expensive) than it needs to be.

From my point of view the reason seems to be fairly simple: with the former „a la carte“ program or something similar close to your proposal makes the viewfinder change (or other changes like this) part of the production process. The production process however has been straitened out with the removal of the „a la carte“ option. I think this was necessary to achieve today’s throughput.

Changes like the viewfinder change have been moved to customer service, this decouple it completely from all production processes, production locations and production personal.

l‘m absolutely sure this was also an obvious step since the share of „a la carte“ orders might have dropped significantly with the overall increase of production volume in the last years, so efficiency was important. 
I admit that there could be some potential for simplification by keeping the camera after production in an intermediate location and to CS from there..

[Ouroboros]

28mm is my most used focal length on my .72 MP but I also use 35mm, 50mm, 75mm and 90mm lenses frequently and the .72  viewfinder is the most versatile option.

 

[Ouroboros]

10 hours ago, Vlad Soare said:

Good point. That's why I decided against having a.85 installed in my M-A, although I would have loved it with my 75mm lens. But it would have made my other lens, a 35mm, more difficult to use, and it would have ruled out the possibility of adding a 28mm to my line-up în the future, should I ever want to (yes, I know there are external finders, but I don't like them). I think the.72 is the best compromise, all things considered.

Don’t forget you also have the option of adding a 1.25x or 1.4x viewfinder magnifier for longer lenses.  

[Nino]

4 hours ago, Huss said:

Nino, not sure where you live but if you are in the LA USA area you can check mine out to see which finder works best for you.  Or you could call your closest Leica shop/carrier and see if they have any you could check.

Much appreciated Huss, i am based in Dubai, a bit far from LA 😅 , but Thank you so much for your kindness ! I ll consider to pass by leica store here in UAE and i ll have a look! Cheers mate!

[logan2z]

2 hours ago, Vlad Soare said:

Because stocking a special, not very sought out, version of a camera that's already in low demand to begin with would not make much business sense. Most users find the 0.72 just fine and would struggle to use a 0.52. So in the end that camera would either sit on a shelf for years, waiting for a wide-angle shooter to buy it, or someone would buy it and would send it back to Leica to have a .72 installed, which gets us back where we started from.

I wasn't suggesting that Leica produce cameras with 0.85 or 0.58 VFs on a regular basis and hope that someone buys them.  I was just suggesting that one should be able to order the camera (through an authorized dealer) with the VF of choice and have it built that way from the start, rather than buying a VF they don't want from a dealer and be required to immediately send it back to the factory for the VF change.

Take Porsche, for example.  I can order a car with the 'paint to sample' option, provide a sample of a color I'd like and (if Porsche approves of the color), the car will be painted with that color at the factory as it's built.  I don't have to buy the car in some standard color and then return it to the factory to be repainted.

[logan2z]

2 hours ago, Helge said:

From my point of view the reason seems to be fairly simple: with the former „a la carte“ program or something similar close to your proposal makes the viewfinder change (or other changes like this) part of the production process. The production process however has been straitened out with the removal of the „a la carte“ option. I think this was necessary to achieve today’s throughput.

Changes like the viewfinder change have been moved to customer service, this decouple it completely from all production processes, production locations and production personal.

l‘m absolutely sure this was also an obvious step since the share of „a la carte“ orders might have dropped significantly with the overall increase of production volume in the last years, so efficiency was important. 
I admit that there could be some potential for simplification by keeping the camera after production in an intermediate location and to CS from there..

I guess since this is the 'film' Leica sub-forum and I shoot film with Leicas exclusively, my brain was in film mode.  And since Leica produces film cameras in small batches sporadically throughout the year, rather than producing them at higher volumes like the digital cameras, I was thinking it would be easier to build something more bespoke.  My understanding is that Leica builds cameras - even digital cameras - in much lower volumes than other manufacturers, and so I figured it would be possible to do something like that even in the context of digital cameras.  But apparently that's not the case or they would have kept the 'a la carte' program around. 

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[Vlad Soare]

2 minutes ago, logan2z said:

Take Porsche, for example.  I can order a car with the 'paint to sample' option, provide a sample of a color I'd like and (if Porsche approves of the color), the car will be painted with that color at the factory as it's built.  I don't have to buy the car in some standard color and then return it to the factory to be repainted.

True. But then you have to wait eight months for that Porsche if you're lucky, or even more if aren't.