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Oskar, with a 'C' or a 'K'


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6 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

That stamp is on top of the original Reichs stamp. I am sure that both the original stamp and the Nazi era stamps signify that this is an official record. My guess is that someone requested an official copy of the marriage certificate during the period of 1933 to 1945. For what reason we cannot know. This is long after Barnack went to work for Leitz, but during the period when he died in 1936.

I agree but this is a copy certificate and the details may not be accurate (a member of my family requested a copy death certificate and there were a couple of errors on it). William states in his post " I am told that Oscar Fricke, son of Rolf Fricke, has the original or a copy of the original handwritten document from 1903". It will be interesting to see if this shows the same spelling.

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1 hour ago, derleicaman said:

That stamp is on top of the original Reichs stamp. I am sure that both the original stamp and the Nazi era stamps signify that this is an official record. My guess is that someone requested an official copy of the marriage certificate during the period of 1933 to 1945. For what reason we cannot know. This is long after Barnack went to work for Leitz, but during the period when he died in 1936.

The solution to what is in that may lie in the original if Oscar Fricke has it. They have nothing like this in the Archives nor do they know of Barnack heirs. They were impressed with the LHSA Archives and the Viewfinder Archives, Bill. That is a whole other topic about which I will talk to you separately. A member of the German Historica Society has put out 3 large books in German not only about Leitz production and literature going back to the 19th Century, but also with details of almost every identifiable member of staff at Leitz. These books look like a massive printed database. I’m going to talk to Lars about getting some access to it. It is so comprehensive that the people at the Archives can easily say that have nothing like this.  
 

There is a lot more digging to do.

William 

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As always, the situation with Leitz history gets curiouser and curiouser! This is what keeps us going and drives our family members nuts wondering why anyone would be interested in this arcana, but we are! Jim Lager always says to me, he doesn't think anybody is interested in this stuff anymore. I keep on reassuring him that people are, and keep writing Jim!

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5 hours ago, willeica said:

Bill, see my previous post above . The ‘Oscar’ use may go back much further. You need to contact Oscar Fricke to cross check on this. He is going to be ‘Willi Barnack’ to me from now on. 

William 

Billy Barnack has a better ring about it.

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7 hours ago, willeica said:

Another piece. This time a signed photo from the estate of his daughter Hanna. It is, of course, an ‘official  photo’ showing him at his desk. This looks like a ‘k’ . 

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I’m going into the Leica Archive in the afternoon and will look around for more.

William 

As posted  by William, the signature sports a “K”.  The conmemorative Leica 0 Series reproduction shows, obviously, the same.

Alejandro.

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Waiting to hear back from Oscar Fricke and what documentation he may have and what recollections Rolf may have about this.

I heard back from Fabrizio Pangrazi, who provided some more documents with Barnack's name spelled with a 'K'. Among the documents was the death notice from E. Leitz, a letter signed by Barnack and the attached request and confirmation of Barnack's birth certificate. Interesting that this was issued on March 7, 1979 from the DDR. This document supplies the bare bones of Oskar's birth, noting he was a male child. It gives the date, November 1, 1879, place, Lynow, and parents Ferdinand and Caroline Barnack geb. (Maiden Name) Becker. No remarks.

The only other thing interesting about this document is that it was filled out in the Zossen office, during the regime of the DDR. Pre-War and during WWII, Zossen (Wunsdorf) became the headquarters of the OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht) under Field Marshal Keitel. After the war, the Soviets occupied Zossen and made it their Supreme Headquarters of all Soviet Forces in Germany until 1994. The Soviets changed the name of the complex to Wunsdorf. At one time, the garrison numbered over 40,000 and was considered a "Forbidden City" to local Germans. It was recently shown on the Science Channel series Mysteries of the Abandoned. Cool!

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49 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

Waiting to hear back from Oscar Fricke and what documentation he may have and what recollections Rolf may have about this.

I heard back from Fabrizio Pangrazi, who provided some more documents with Barnack's name spelled with a 'K'. Among the documents was the death notice from E. Leitz, a letter signed by Barnack and the attached request and confirmation of Barnack's birth certificate. Interesting that this was issued on March 7, 1979 from the DDR. This document supplies the bare bones of Oskar's birth, noting he was a male child. It gives the date, November 1, 1879, place, Lynow, and parents Ferdinand and Caroline Barnack geb. (Maiden Name) Becker. No remarks.

The only other thing interesting about this document is that it was filled out in the Zossen office, during the regime of the DDR. Pre-War and during WWII, Zossen (Wunsdorf) became the headquarters of the OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht) under Field Marshal Keitel. After the war, the Soviets occupied Zossen and made it their Supreme Headquarters of all Soviet Forces in Germany until 1994. The Soviets changed the name of the complex to Wunsdorf. At one time, the garrison numbered over 40,000 and was considered a "Forbidden City" to local Germans. It was recently shown on the Science Channel series Mysteries of the Abandoned. Cool!

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As regards record keeping a lot of strange things happened in Germany before and after WWII and in the case of East Germany up to the 1990s. In some cases records were kept by occupying forces and then withdrawn from Germany altogether. In the case of the 1935 BMW car in my ‘Swiss Photos’ it was sporting a clearly visible post war Munich/Bavarian plate which had been issued by the US occupying authorities. No records of the registered owners of such plates exist in Germany at present. We were told that these had been withdrawn to the US and that the US authorities would not give access to them, probably for logistical reasons. God knows what happened to information registered in the Soviet sector.

Bill, I have no doubt the dear old Oskar (or Wilhelm as I and, I hope, you prefer) was named and christened as Oskar, but there is more than enough evidence that ‘Oscar’ was used within his family circle, including possibly by himself. If you pursue Oscar Fricke, I will ask Lars about the German guy (I have his name, but don’t want to give it here as he does not know about any of this discussion) who appears to have a database of very many Leitz employees over a very long period of time. This includes data on who worked on what designs and patents etc, really astonishing stuff, which is only available in German. He is trying to sell some books, but I hope he can be generous about Oskar/Oscar.

I’d like to repeat once again, that this is not a contest about Oskar v Oscar, but research about why and when both were used. I have dug up as much as I can here in Wetzlar today (I’m here on my ‘own dime’ by the way). Tomorrow is the big auction of No 105, which will indicate how the market values the camera. It was looking rather serene, sitting in a glass case, when I saw it, possibly for the last time, this morning.

William 

Edited by willeica
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Hello William, have heard back from Oscar Fricke (several emails in a few hours) and he will be getting back to me with quite a bit of information on the Oscar v. Oskar story.

I pointed out to Oscar that his father Rolf chose to spell his name with a 'C' and asked him if there was any thing he could ask his dad about that!

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8 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Hello William, have heard back from Oscar Fricke (several emails in a few hours) and he will be getting back to me with quite a bit of information on the Oscar v. Oskar story.

I pointed out to Oscar that his father Rolf chose to spell his name with a 'C' and asked him if there was any thing he could ask his dad about that!

I was standing beside Rolf’s collection in the Leica Archive yesterday. The people in the archive were hugely impressed with the look up facility in our Viewfinder archive, which Alfonso has used. They also liked the other material which is available online to members in the LHSA Archive. I’m hoping to have a discussion on all of this at the Dublin Conference next October. 

William

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Here is something Oscar Fricke sent me. It is a drawing that Conrad Barnack made, with a poem about his life at that time. A lot of this is to be taken with a grain of salt. Note the date of the poem and sketch. This was sometime after the sale of 105 in 1960 to Jim Forsyth by Conrad Barnack. Note that he is talkeing about the Post Man arriving with a check for 2000 DM. Back in those days, the exchange rate was fixed at 4:1, which equals USD $ 500. OK, what would that $ 500 be worth today? A google search reaveals that a dollar in 1960 is worth $ 9.87, so that $ 500 in 1960 is worth $ 4,935.00! Logically, the next question would be how many payments were made in this amount? Again, keep in mind the drawing and the letter date to November 1963, so at least three years of installment payments? Your guess is as good as mine! Note that Conrad says it is a monthly installment, so for arguements sake, 36 installments at $ 4,935.00 equals $ 177,660.00!

On another note, Oscar Fricke is convinced that Conrad Barnack was responsible for the engraving of "Oscar Barnack" on the finder, not Jim Forsyth. 

I encourage your thoughts on this subject. As I said earlier, the more I find out about this, the more curiouser and curiouser it gets.

Poem by Conrad Barnack dated 5 November 1963:

Sitting amongst peaceful flowers
in a garden like Eisenhower’s [1]
far away from troubles
blowing away soapy bubbles
awaiting the monthly sky-lark [2]
the post-man with 2000 D-Mark
as suggested by Jim the promotor
the mightyful “Leica-League” motor
Resting from all the Life’s plaga [3]
This all is the Forsyth-Saga. [4]

See attached original poem and drawing.

Jim Forsyth was always short of money. He made lots of promises to Conrad Barnack, but often could not deliver, and Conrad would become frustrated. As noted previously, Conrad had worked in England 1934-36 and could write very cleverly in the English language.

Notes:
1. Former U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower (president 1953 to 1961).
2. The skylark is a bird, and also a symbol of joy.
3. Resting from all of life’s “Plagues” or “plaga” for rhyming purposes.
4. “Forsyth-Saga” is a play on words with respect to “The Forsyte Saga”, a series of British books published in the early 20th century (and much later a TV series) (about generational change among other things).

Oscar

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Edited by derleicaman
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Am 10.6.2022 um 15:27 schrieb derleicaman:

That stamp is on top of the original Reichs stamp. I am sure that both the original stamp and the Nazi era stamps signify that this is an official record. My guess is that someone requested an official copy of the marriage certificate during the period of 1933 to 1945. For what reason we cannot know. This is long after Barnack went to work for Leitz, but during the period when he died in 1936.

Bill, you are probably right with your assumption that the stamp is from the Nazi era to prove the correctness of the marriage certificate.  In June 33, two month after the "Machtübernahme" , the parliament issued  laws and directions  to identify and then  to exclude Jews from all areas of public life. So  Oskar had to prove, as any German of that era who had a position , that he was not jewish nor married to a Jew and thus had to present a certificate of marriage. If he had been jewish, he  would have lost his job eventually---if his wife had been Jewish, he  would  have been "asked" to divorce her..... That dates the Nazi stamp somewhere after June 33.

My father, who was a barrister, told me he had--as any other student of law-- to prove he had no "jewish blood." in his ancestry....otherwise that would have been the end of him being a student of law.  After he  found out the family tree had more branches than expected,  he presented a pedigree adapted to the times and got through with it.....  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_paragraph--the english version is quite short and incomplete. The german site on this is much more extensive. 

K. 

Edited by Kl@usW.
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17 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Here is something Oscar Fricke sent me. It is a drawing that Conrad Barnack made, with a poem about his life at that time. A lot of this is to be taken with a grain of salt. Note the date of the poem and sketch. This was sometime after the sale of 105 in 1960 to Jim Forsyth by Conrad Barnack. Note that he is talkeing about the Post Man arriving with a check for 2000 DM. Back in those days, the exchange rate was fixed at 4:1, which equals USD $ 500. OK, what would that $ 500 be worth today? A google search reaveals that a dollar in 1960 is worth $ 9.87, so that $ 500 in 1960 is worth $ 4,935.00! Logically, the next question would be how many payments were made in this amount? Again, keep in mind the drawing and the letter date to November 1963, so at least three years of installment payments? Your guess is as good as mine! Note that Conrad says it is a monthly installment, so for arguements sake, 36 installments at $ 4,935.00 equals $ 177,660.00!

On another note, Oscar Fricke is convinced that Conrad Barnack was responsible for the engraving of "Oscar Barnack" on the finder, not Jim Forsyth. 

I encourage your thoughts on this subject. As I said earlier, the more I find out about this, the more curiouser and curiouser it gets.

Poem by Conrad Barnack dated 5 November 1963:

Sitting amongst peaceful flowers
in a garden like Eisenhower’s [1]
far away from troubles
blowing away soapy bubbles
awaiting the monthly sky-lark [2]
the post-man with 2000 D-Mark
as suggested by Jim the promotor
the mightyful “Leica-League” motor
Resting from all the Life’s plaga [3]
This all is the Forsyth-Saga. [4]

See attached original poem and drawing.

Jim Forsyth was always short of money. He made lots of promises to Conrad Barnack, but often could not deliver, and Conrad would become frustrated. As noted previously, Conrad had worked in England 1934-36 and could write very cleverly in the English language.

Notes:
1. Former U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower (president 1953 to 1961).
2. The skylark is a bird, and also a symbol of joy.
3. Resting from all of life’s “Plagues” or “plaga” for rhyming purposes.
4. “Forsyth-Saga” is a play on words with respect to “The Forsyte Saga”, a series of British books published in the early 20th century (and much later a TV series) (about generational change among other things).

Oscar

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I missed this yesterday, Bill. There is an element of irony in the 'Forsyth-Saga' reference. Conrad may have been a bit of a an 'Anglophile' himself, but the document which I posted last Friday (which was in the papers with No 105) was a record of something from before Conrad was born. Does Oscar Fricke have any document which is handwritten , such as the original entry in a marriage register signed by Barnack himself?

Anyway, the No 105 camera is now sold and will continue on with the 'Oscar Barnack' engraving on its back. All of the top experts, Lager, Netopil, and Michaely are in no doubt about the camera's authenticity. It's value is a matter for discussion, but the auction process has determined that for the time being

I went through the file of documents with No 105 and several other items in other lots  ( e.g. Conrad Barnack's book and the blueprints for the 0 and I Series)  while I was in the 'inspection room'. The only thing that I saw that related to the 'C' v 'K' issue was the marriage cert, which, as Klaus has said, was a requirement to have during the 1930s. There was a lot of material about the Barnack League and letters between parties in the US , but very little from Conrad other than the letter already seen and the book which was in a separate lot. Ottmar later showed me the handwritten record for Oskar Barnack's birth on his phone. It was written in very old German.

I should add that all of the documents I saw, other than the birth cert, would have been available for inspection by bidders at the auction or by someone acting on their behalf. 

Whether the engraving was done by Conrad or Forsyth is a matter of conjecture, pending proof either way, but this was not really relevant to the auction process, nor was the relationship between Conrad and Forsyth.

As I said before, all of this adds to rather than subtracts from the mystique and legend of the camera.

I look forward to seeing your final article.

William 

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Can anyone actually read his handwriting?

 

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22 minutes ago, frame-it said:

Can anyone actually read his handwriting?

 

Can you say what this is from, before I ask someone to interpret this?

William 

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A Pal next door, in Tokyo has a book, he sent me a few screenshots

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