M6 (non TTL or TTL) or M7 advice

[muleschooler]

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Hi. I currently use an M4-P but would like an internal light meter. I'm mainly looking at the M6 but am intrigued by the M7.

My main question about the TTL and non TTL M6 is the light meter. I've read the TTL is more sensitive but also more prone to breaking down. Is this true? And any other positives/negatives between the two?

And the AE of the M7 interests me but I understand it is not as reliable as the M6 and might not be serviceable soon. Some people seem to love it and others hate it. Please share your thoughts.

Lastly, my lenses are 28, 35, 50 and 85. Will a .85 VF not support 28 and 35? My M4-P has a .72 and it works well for me but an advantage in focusing would be nice.

Any insight into this broad topic will be greatly appreciated and thank you for reading.

[Matlock]

12 minutes ago, muleschooler said:

Hi. I currently use an M4-P but would like an internal light meter. I'm mainly looking at the M6 but am intrigued by the M7.

My main question about the TTL and non TTL M6 is the light meter. I've read the TTL is more sensitive but also more prone to breaking down. Is this true? And any other positives/negatives between the two?

And the AE of the M7 interests me but I understand it is not as reliable as the M6 and might not be serviceable soon. Some people seem to love it and others hate it. Please share your thoughts.

Lastly, my lenses are 28, 35, 50 and 85. Will a .85 VF not support 28 and 35? My M4-P has a .72 and it works well for me but an advantage in focusing would be nice.

Any insight into this broad topic will be greatly appreciated and thank you for reading.

I have both a M6TTL and M7. Both are extremely reliable cameras and it rather depends what you need. Please don't take notice of the 'prophets of doom' that frequent this forum. The M7 is a newer camera and is still serviced by Leica. In my view the .72 viewfinder is the best compromise. In the end only you can decide but my choice would be the M7. 

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[jaapv]

I would advise the M6 Classic over the M6TTL. The TTL is more prone to viewfinder flare and a bit lumpy, the M6 Classic is the traditional M4 dimensions.

[madNbad]

Welcome to the forum! Having never owned the M7 I can't give personal feedback but many owners love them and find them easy to use. The best advice is to find a newer body with the optical DX reader and improved viewfinder. The M6 is a fine camera but prices have skyrocketed lately and only a handful of the late versions offered the .85 viewfinder. All M6s' suffer from finder flare which is an annoyance that only happens occasionally but takes up a lot of space on photo forums. The M6 TTL is a fine camera to use. Like the M7, the large shutter speed dial is easy to turn with the camera at eye level and turns in the same direction as the exposure indicator arrows. If you can deal with some condition issues, zinc oxidation which causes bubbles in the finish, there are some deals to be found on the TTL. The M6 TTL is also your best chance of finding a .85 finder. There is much hand wringing about the M6 TTL electronics and the lack of parts. Some cameras have had problems but most have not, don't let that scare you away. With the M6 or the TTL if the meters do die, you still have a useable camera. I agree with Matlock, the .72 is the most universal Leica finder for a reason, it works well with a wide variety of lenses. Good luck with your search.

[plaidshirts]

.85 VF does not have 28mm framelines. Since most of your lenses are in the wide to normal range, I'd get a .56 or .72 VF and a 1.25X magnifier for when you do shoot something longer.

I've had multiple copies of M6 classic and TTL. None of them have ever failed on me, for what it's worth. so instead of being swayed by rumors, get one that's been CLA'ed recently and in good cosmetic shape.

Edited June 6, 2022 by plaidshirts

[Huss]

I have the M7 (x2!) and the MP - which is the improved M6.  Don't worry about reliability, get the camera you want.  If we worry about everything we'd have packed it in the moment Covid hit!

The M7 is fantastic to use, and very quick and easy as it has AE.  It is the most modern Leica film camera.  The M6 is fantastic to use and is manual exposure (which the M7 can also do).

The question is not which is better, but which one do you want?  As that would be the better one for you.

[Anbaric]

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On 6/6/2022 at 6:51 PM, muleschooler said:

Hi. I currently use an M4-P but would like an internal light meter. I'm mainly looking at the M6 but am intrigued by the M7.

My main question about the TTL and non TTL M6 is the light meter. I've read the TTL is more sensitive but also more prone to breaking down. Is this true? And any other positives/negatives between the two?

And the AE of the M7 interests me but I understand it is not as reliable as the M6 and might not be serviceable soon. Some people seem to love it and others hate it. Please share your thoughts.

Lastly, my lenses are 28, 35, 50 and 85. Will a .85 VF not support 28 and 35? My M4-P has a .72 and it works well for me but an advantage in focusing would be nice.

Any insight into this broad topic will be greatly appreciated and thank you for reading.

I think it's important not to confuse reliability with serviceability. None of these cameras is unreliable, and all are likely to continue working for a long time. That said, because a metered Leica M is a very expensive purchase, and it's a camera that may still be in use decades from now (if someone still makes film), it's understandable that potential owners may want to consider serviceability. As far as I know, the M7 remains fully serviceable. But when the parts do run out, there will be some faults that can't be fixed that could make the camera inoperable. As of 2022, neither the M6 Classic nor the M6-TTL are fully serviceable, as there are circuit boards that are no longer available. At worst, the M6-TTL can lose both metering and all flash synchronisation (not just TTL flash). At worst, the M6 Classic can lose metering but (as with your M4-P) a circuit board isn't required for flash sync. One respected UK repair technician, Alan Starkie, has mentioned re-engineering the main circuit board for at least the Classic, so this situation might change in the future. Your other alternative, of course, is an MP, which is still in production and therefore serviceable, but a used MP will be at least 40% more expensive than an M6 Classic. You may or may not like the retro-style wind-on lever and rewind knob (slower than the rewind crank on the other cameras). The brass top plate means you won't get the 'zinc bubbles' that affect some M6s.

One thing to note is that the MP and the M6 Classic have shutter speed dials that rotate in the same direction as your M4-P (think of the metering LEDs as arrows that guide how the back of the dial should be moved by your thumb). The TTL and M7 dials rotate in the opposite direction, probably because it's natural to rotate their larger dials with your finger from the front. As mentioned above, the 0.85 finder has no 28mm framelines, and some people find the 35mm framelines uncomfortable, especially if they wear glasses. On the other hand, the 0.85 will be better for your longer lenses, and the 50mm frameline (somewhat undersized relative to the actual coverage of the lens at longer distances in the M6 0.72 finder) seems somewhat more accurate at typical shooting distances. For some comparisons, see:

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/node/164467

and:

 

 

[andrew01]

I have the M6 classic and love it.  I am curious to know why the circuit boards from the MP can’t be fitted as a service replacement?   Is it because of a different response curve of the SPD cell?  What causes the circuit boards to fail?

This is a very simple camera so it is disappointing that Leica cannot keep a supply of the required circuit boards.

 

 

[jaapv]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:51 PM, plaidshirts said:

.85 VF does not have 28mm framelines. Since most of your lenses are in the wide to normal range, I'd get a .56 or .72 VF and a 1.25X magnifier for when you do shoot something longer.

I've had multiple copies of M6 classic and TTL. None of them have ever failed on me, for what it's worth. so instead of being swayed by rumors, get one that's been CLA'ed recently and in good cosmetic shape.

And I have never seen any zinc bubbling on my M6 classic, nor have had any issues  concerning finder flare (but My M6TTL was rather bad in that respect)

 

11 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

I have the M6 classic and love it.  I am curious to know why the circuit boards from the MP can’t be fitted as a service replacement?   Is it because of a different response curve of the SPD cell?  What causes the circuit boards to fail?

This is a very simple camera so it is disappointing that Leica cannot keep a supply of the required circuit boards.

 

 

Any halfway competent circuit board repair service should be able to repair the rather simple M6 Classic one.

[Matlock]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

And I have never seen any zinc bubbling on my M6 classic, nor have had any issues  concerning finder flare (but My M6TTL was rather bad in that respect)

I have never seen any zinc bubbling on any M6 or M4-P, other than in pictures. I believe the problem occurred on a very few early examples and was quickly sorted by Leica.

[Anbaric]

I had a look a few weeks ago at all the M6s I could find for sale online in the UK at various dealers and on ebay. I counted around 20 cameras, 4 with obvious signs of bubbling (extensive in 1 case). All 4 were Classics, and while 2 were the early Wetzlar variant, the other 2 were not.

I do see finder flare 'whiteout' with my Classic (I noticed it the first time I used the camera, with a window behind me). For me it's not a showstopper, but it can be irritating from time to time.

I imagine whether a circuit board can currently be repaired depends on the fault. There may be more impetus to fix them now that there are no more drop-in replacements, but if a chip is dead and unavailable that's a different matter to just resoldering a connection. Hopefully we will see a reverse-engineered replacement for the whole thing at some point. Cameraworks UK, who are going to try this, have a track record of getting replacements made for unavailable components.

I had also wondered about the MP board, and had seen (and repeated) claims it could be used in the M6, but DAG says no. Obviously the MP board has to drive a couple more LEDs, so there must be some differences. Maybe if you ripped out the entire meter and replaced it with MP parts something could be bodged?

Edited June 14, 2022 by Anbaric

[JohnnyMartyr]

On 6/6/2022 at 2:19 PM, jaapv said:

I would advise the M6 Classic over the M6TTL. The TTL is more prone to viewfinder flare and a bit lumpy, the M6 Classic is the traditional M4 dimensions.

The M6 Classic does not have anti-UV coating on the front rangefinder windows but the M6 TTL does and therefore it is less flare-prone than the M6 Classic.  Increased flare and white-out of the RF patch come with increased VF magnification.  For example, a .85x finder will exhibit more flaring than the .72x finder and the .58 will exhibit the least.  All of this is resolved by getting an MP rangefinder optic upgrade.    

[JohnnyMartyr]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:51 PM, muleschooler said:

My main question about the TTL and non TTL M6 is the light meter. I've read the TTL is more sensitive but also more prone to breaking down. Is this true? And any other positives/negatives between the two?

The M6 meter is supposedly still serviceable while the M6 TTL meter is only serviceable in instances where replacement parts or programing are not needed.  The supplier of the exposure meter boards for the M6 TTL (there are two) discontinued them and they needed to be programed by Leica anyway.  So even if you were to lay hands on a NOS example, it couldn't be programed because Leica no longer offer this.  For a blog and subsequent Petapixel article that I wrote a few years back (https://johnnymartyr.wordpress.com/2020/01/23/imho-leica-m6-ttl-85/) I asked Leica repair technician Don Goldberg his opinion on the reliability of the M6 TTL meter.  He had this to say:

"“I’ve had 2 Leica M6-TTL cameras in so far that needed new main circuit boards. That’s out of 489 M6-TTL cameras that I’ve had in for repair.”  This as as of July 2019.  And those two board replacements?  “One of the circuit boards that was bad was due to someone removing the body shell without first removing parts that got in the way of the main board & damaged the board. The other one I think was defective & had to go to Leica, USA. All in all the M6-TTL is very reliable. I think the reason I’ve had 489 M6-TTL cameras in my shop is that they sold lots of them, people want complete overhauls eventually.”

The M7's electronics are more "endangered" than the M6 TTL's.  If you want the longest lasting built-in meter Leica body, it's got to be the MP simply because they are still serviceable by Leica and will continue to be so long as they sell the camera.  In all reality, I have cameras from the 1960's with working electronic meters inside them and don't expect meter failure is common with any of these 1980's and newer models, but all but the M7 will continue to work fine sans meter in the event that the electronics do fail.

Me personally, I chose the M6 TTL because I wanted a three LED meter read-out, not a two LED meter read-out like the M6 and I did not want to pay the premium for an MP.  I also prefer the larger reverse SS dial on the M6 TTL as I think it makes infinitely more visual sense with the built-in meter.  
 

On 6/6/2022 at 1:51 PM, muleschooler said:

Lastly, my lenses are 28, 35, 50 and 85. Will a .85 VF not support 28 and 35? My M4-P has a .72 and it works well for me but an advantage in focusing would be nice.

   
.72x viewfinders from the M6 to the M-A contain the following framelines: 28, 35, 50, 90 and 135.  If you want "an advantage in focusing," you want a .85x finder but this will eliminate 28mm framelines and some shooters don't like how close the 35mm framelines are to the perimeter of the finder.  .85x finders are used to increase the effective baselength when using fast and long lenses.  If your longest lens is only 85 and it's not an f2 or faster, .72x should focus it fine.  I primarily use a 50/1.5 and 90/2, occasionally a 135 but never 28 (I go right to 15) so I use a .85x finder.

If your 35, 50 and 85 are fast and you enjoy shooting them wide open and closer distances, I think you'll see a quick advantage to shooting them with a .85x finder.  You could always relegate the 28 to your M4-P or use a 28mm accessory finder with the newer camera.  

As also noted above, the M6, M6 TTL and M7 do not contain the condenser lens that earlier Leica's had.  They can be more prone to RF white-out as a result.  Smaller magnification finders are less prone than larger ones.  And the M6 TTL also has anti-UV coated windows to help prevent finder flare also.  I find the M6 TTL finder to be very crisp, like modern M's whereas the M6 Classic framelines and patch are a little mushier without the anti-UV coating.  I also had my M6 TTL .85 upgraded to the MP finder, which can still be done readily by Leica or Don Goldberg and others.  

I hope you enjoy whatever you land on, happy shooting!



 

[Huss]

The M7 had a production line change where Leica started using the same RF optics as the MP and so no longer flares.  It occurred somewhere in the 300xxx range onwards.  Quite a few earlier M7s were retrofitted as Leica did that free for a while if you complained.

My M7s - 300xxx+ and 400xxx+ serial #s have no such issues.

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Huss

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, JohnnyMartyr said:

The M6 Classic does not have anti-UV coating on the front rangefinder windows but the M6 TTL does and therefore it is less flare-prone than the M6 Classic.  Increased flare and white-out of the RF patch come with increased VF magnification.  For example, a .85x finder will exhibit more flaring than the .72x finder and the .58 will exhibit the least.  All of this is resolved by getting an MP rangefinder optic upgrade.    

Not my experience with both cameras side by side. 

[Anbaric]

7 hours ago, JohnnyMartyr said:

The M6 meter is supposedly still serviceable while the M6 TTL meter is only serviceable in instances where replacement parts or programing are not needed. 

That changed a few months ago for the Classic - see announcement from DAG:

https://www.dagcamera.com/store/p166/Leica_M6-_Classic-_No_More_Main_Circuit_Boards.html

and detailed post by Alan Starkie, where he mentions working on a replacement:

https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/post/is-your-leica-m6-slowly-becoming-an-m4-p-no-more-light-meter-pcb-s

Alan may also look at the TTL board, with the aim of making something that doesn't have to be programmed by Leica:

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/node/4782210/page2#post4785021

[Huss]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

Not my experience with both cameras side by side. 

Agreed.  That was a strange statement.

[Huss]

12 hours ago, Anbaric said:

 

Alan may also look at the TTL board, with the aim of making something that doesn't have to be programmed by Leica:

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/node/4782210/page2#post4785021

Programmed by Leica?   The M6 came out in 1984.  What did they use to program it, an original Mac?  Commodore 64?  How tough can it be to program it with today's tech?

😜

[Anbaric]

21 minutes ago, Huss said:

Programmed by Leica?   The M6 came out in 1984.  What did they use to program it, an original Mac?  Commodore 64?  How tough can it be to program it with today's tech?

😜

Only the TTL (1998) was apparently calibrated by computer - maybe a Pentium II running Windows 95? 🙂 Alan Starkie's post implies the Classic just uses potentiometers a technician can adjust directly, and that would also be the way he would go if he reverse-engineered the TTL board.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Anbaric

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[madNbad]

35 minutes ago, Huss said:

Programmed by Leica?   The M6 came out in 1984.  What did they use to program it, an original Mac?  Commodore 64?  How tough can it be to program it with today's tech?

😜

In the winter of 1982, I bought a Commodore 64. My friends and I spent two days putting it together the another two writing the program to make the little biplane take off, do a loop and land. All of it was saved on a cassette tape. If this is the type of circuitry we’re discussing, someone should be able to fabricate areplacement board for the M6.

Edited June 15, 2022 by madNbad