tfyl Posted October 10, 2022 Share #41 Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) This is nothing wrong with the camera, just how you load the film, during loading, after put the film into the camera body, what I do is to open the back door and push the film leader a little bit downward so it can try to align and catch the teeth of the spool, this helps every time Edited October 10, 2022 by tfyl Typo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 10, 2022 Posted October 10, 2022 Hi tfyl, Take a look here MP not rewinding. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 10, 2022 Share #42 Posted October 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Huss said: I’m sorry Michael but I respectfully disagree. There is no need to “learn to walk” before trying to run. There is no running in following Leica’s extremely simple instructions. Remove base, extend film leader so it is long enough to enter the tulip. Drop film canister in making sure the end of film leader is in the tulip. Reattach base. Wind on. That is it, it doesn't get simpler than that. Hello Huss, That may well work for you and some others. But, it does not seem to be working here for hirohhhh. This is 1 of the reasons that Leitz decided to make a back that opens when it began with its "M" cameras. Leitz had made a camera without an opening back for its screw mount cameras because, among other reasons, it did not want people doing things to the mechanism. As well as to keep out dust, etc. But, with the advent of the "M" series, before tulips & quick loads, they decided to go to the added size, cost, weight, etc. of a back that opens so that people loading the cameras could see what was happening & modify what they were doing until they got to the point where they were able to load the film easily. Please note that when they began tulips around the time of M4's: They did NOT go back to a closed back. Best Regards, Michael Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Soare Posted October 10, 2022 Share #43 Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Geschlecht said: This is 1 of the reasons that Leitz decided to make a back that opens when it began with its "M" cameras. Leitz had made a camera without an opening back for its screw mount cameras because, among other reasons, it did not want people doing things to the mechanism. As well as to keep out dust, etc. But, with the advent of the "M" series, before tulips & quick loads, they decided to go to the added size, cost, weight, etc. of a back that opens so that people loading the cameras could see what was happening & modify what they were doing until they got to the point where they were able to load the film easily. No, actually I think they went to an open back because they wanted to do away with the need for trimming the leader. That's why they didn't revert to a closed back after the introduction of the tulip - because the tulip had nothing to do with it. With or without the tulip, a closed back would mean a return of the ABLON. I don't think allowing users to see what's happening was high on their list of priorities. Edited October 10, 2022 by Vlad Soare Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmrider2 Posted October 10, 2022 Share #44 Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) In this age of digital cameras, it is easy for those of us who grew up with film cameras to forget that things we took for granted are now either unknown or very exotic. This seems to be a case of "operator error". The OP simply needs to get together with someone familiar with loading film cameras for them to show him what is going on. Honestly, the Leica M's don't load that much differently than Nikons, Minoltas or Canons. Something as simple as loading a roll of film is very difficult to describe in writing (look at almost three pages here trying to do so). Ten minutes with another person who knows what they are doing will take care of the problem. If the red dots on the rewind knob on the camera are rotating when the film is advanced tells us the gear train works. Everything else sounds like the OP is not familiar with the forces (tearing film or pulling it from the cassette) which are normal during 35 film operation. I am not throwing rocks. I wish I knew half as much as my daughter does about digital cameras and she is not a photographer or even that interested. I am that analog dinosaur you read about and I admit it. I like film and have since 1966. Get together with a camera store or someone who knows how to load a camera. Your problem will be solved in five minutes. I would say ten minutes but that would be insulting your intelligence. If the red dots rotate when you are advancing the film, it is working correctly. If they are not, then try it again as the film is not advancing. Edited October 10, 2022 by ktmrider2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 10, 2022 Share #45 Posted October 10, 2022 49 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said: In this age of digital cameras, it is easy for those of us who grew up with film cameras to forget that things we took for granted are now either unknown or very exotic. This seems to be a case of "operator error". The OP simply needs to get together with someone familiar with loading film cameras for them to show him what is going on. Honestly, the Leica M's don't load that much differently than Nikons, Minoltas or Canons. Something as simple as loading a roll of film is very difficult to describe in writing (look at almost three pages here trying to do so). Ten minutes with another person who knows what they are doing will take care of the problem. If the red dots on the rewind knob on the camera are rotating when the film is advanced tells us the gear train works. Everything else sounds like the OP is not familiar with the forces (tearing film or pulling it from the cassette) which are normal during 35 film operation. I am not throwing rocks. I wish I knew half as much as my daughter does about digital cameras and she is not a photographer or even that interested. I am that analog dinosaur you read about and I admit it. I like film and have since 1966. Get together with a camera store or someone who knows how to load a camera. Your problem will be solved in five minutes. I would say ten minutes but that would be insulting your intelligence. If the red dots rotate when you are advancing the film, it is working correctly. If they are not, then try it again as the film is not advancing. A further option would be to consult pages 76, 77, and 78 of the manual, either found in the box the camera came in or downloadable online. Having somebody else show a person can very easily introduce personal quirks such as those found in the YouTube instructional videos we all laugh at. I've just read the manual and can't fault it's instructions and illustrations for loading and unloading a film. Even if some aspect isn't immediately clear to a new user after doing it for the first time I can imagine they would 'get it'. What is off-putting to a new user are personalised rituals and half understood truths found in discussion groups but it is possibly too late for the OP to clear his mind. We are at the stage of not only repeatedly describing a very simple procedure but philosophising on the very nature of what makes something so simple so complicated. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotoklaus Posted October 10, 2022 Share #46 Posted October 10, 2022 I load film to my Ms as shown in the manual and I never had any problems. Pulling out the film until it is between the tulip. Not less, not more. Close the baseplate ( the Sprocket wheel on the baseplate will push the film in it´s right position) crank and fire one time, turning the rewind knob gently until feeling some tension, that´s it. When I shot frame 36 I crank very carefully. Some films may give 37 or even 38 frames. If you crank with force to the next frame the film may torn or cause damage on the gears. So if I just can crank halfway I stop and rewind the film. To be on the safe side I shoot frame 36 and rewind. But without any sensitivity a fine mechanical device is not suitable for everyone. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 10, 2022 Share #47 Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 6 hours ago, Vlad Soare said: No, actually I think they went to an open back because they wanted to do away with the need for trimming the leader. That's why they didn't revert to a closed back after the introduction of the tulip - because the tulip had nothing to do with it. With or without the tulip, a closed back would mean a return of the ABLON. I don't think allowing users to see what's happening was high on their list of priorities. Hello Vlad, The 11th Leica Manual from 1947, when the IIIc was the most advanced model, assumes that film was being sold in ready to use cartridges that have the longer leader necessary for loading in screw mount Leicas. The M3 (The first bayonet mount camera in the "M" series.) arrived in 1954. The M4 is from 1967. The ABLON, & other like devices, was being sold as a device to facilitate bulk film loading into standard cartridges in 1947.. I think that it was in the 1970's, possibly 1980's that film leaders were SHORTENED to their current length. Leitz stopped making ABLON in 1965. Best Regards, Michael Edited October 10, 2022 by Michael Geschlecht 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock Posted October 10, 2022 Share #48 Posted October 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Michael Geschlecht said: Hello Vlad, I think that it was in the 1970's, possibly 1980's that film leaders were SHORTENED to their current length. Best Regards, Michael Long before that Michael. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 10, 2022 Share #49 Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Matlock said: Long before that Michael. Hello Matlock, I don't think so. I remember in the 1960's the long leaders & I remember later, the1970's or after that, when there was the discussion in photo magazines of the shortening of the leader to its current length. In terms of the TOTAL length of the film in the cassette: There is no change. It is just the leader length that is effected. Best Regards, Michael Edited October 10, 2022 by Michael Geschlecht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Soare Posted October 10, 2022 Share #50 Posted October 10, 2022 Speaking of the long leader, I've been wondering whether using an ABLON even with modern Leicas might be a good idea despite not being actually needed. I think it might make the loading even faster and more secure than it already is. Normally, after you insert the tip of the leader into the tulip, you have to open the back and make sure that the film has completely cleared the upper rail (and lend it a hand if it hasn't). Then you close the back, put back the bottom plate, and wind the film. Whereas with a long leader you won't even have to open the back anymore and you won't care about the film clearing the rails. You'd just insert the tip of the film into the tulip, put back the bottom plate, and that's it. Simple, easy, fast, no worry. Any thoughts? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradS Posted October 10, 2022 Share #51 Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Vlad Soare said: Speaking of the long leader, I've been wondering whether using an ABLON even with modern Leicas might be a good idea despite not being actually needed. I think it might make the loading even faster and more secure than it already is. Normally, after you insert the tip of the leader into the tulip, you have to open the back and make sure that the film has completely cleared the upper rail (and lend it a hand if it hasn't). Then you close the back, put back the bottom plate, and wind the film. Whereas with a long leader you won't even have to open the back anymore and you won't care about the film clearing the rails. You'd just insert the tip of the film into the tulip, put back the bottom plate, and that's it. Simple, easy, fast, no worry. Any thoughts? The little thingy on the bottom plate is supposed to (does actually) push the film up into place when the bottom is reattached....so, there's (theoretically) no need to futz with the film leader to get the sprocket holes aligned with the sprockets on the take-up spool...of course, there's no harm in extra futzing with the film leader, as long as one keeps fingers away from shutter curtains. I think that if you load a film according to the instructions in the Leica user manual, without futzing with the leader, and replace the bottom plate but leave the back door open, I think you can convince yourself that the magic works. Similarly, I think the OP could simply load one of the films that he's already ruined, and following the instructions in the manual, reattach the bottom plate but leave the back door open...and observe the magic. One needs to develop confidence that those sneaky mechanical engineers at Leica actually know what they're doing. The system has worked for millions of rolls of film for 50+ years...you just gotta follow instructions and have some confidence that it works....and don't futz with it. Think about the photographers who used to use these things professionally...they didn't take time to futz with the leader. Edited October 10, 2022 by BradS Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hirohhhh Posted October 10, 2022 Author Share #52 Posted October 10, 2022 If these are the pages in the manual that many of you are referring to, of course, I read this many times. That's what I followed when I purchased the camera and loaded it for the first time, and when it works it works. I loaded many rolls successfully. It's just that I had so many problems too. The manual is very simple and clear and there's nothing to not be understood. However, not being used to the mechanics and analog cameras that much as most of you are, some things may not be intuitive for me and that's where I made some mistakes, like pulling the leader too much, then trying to put it back in the canister, or just leaving it out a bit more and then I potentially rolled it on the wrong side of the tulip, because I had that extra film. Or, some of you said I had to push the cassette more. I push it as much as I feel it's right, but then it wasn't mentioned in the manual that if it's not just perfect, it can cause further problem, etc. So the manual is clear, but I guess I have to learn all scenarios where something can go wrong and pay attention next time, until it becomes intuitive. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/333199-mp-not-rewinding/?do=findComment&comment=4529683'>More sharing options...
Vlad Soare Posted October 10, 2022 Share #53 Posted October 10, 2022 13 minutes ago, BradS said: The little thingy on the bottom plate is supposed to (does actually) push the film up into place when the bottom is reattached....so, there's (theoretically) no need to futz with the film leader to get the sprocket holes aligned with the sprockets on the take-up spool... That little thingy pushes the film up into place, provided that it can clear the upper rail. But it won't ensure, all by itself, that it does actually clear it. In order to do that you must first push the tip of the film yourself while the back is open, then close the back. Do it a bit too quickly or carelessly, and you'll have a misload if the film leader happens to be a bit curly. The little thingy will push the film up, but the film won't be able to go past the rail because the back was closed a bit too early, while the film wasn't in the correct position yet, and now the pressure plate won't allow it to move. This isn't just theory. It actually happened to me a couple of times. Luckily I realized that the red dots weren't moving and I tried again. Now I know how it works and I pay attention every time. But I'm thinking that with a long leader it might work perfectly each time even if you weren't paying attention. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huss Posted October 10, 2022 Share #54 Posted October 10, 2022 Pay attention to that warning paragraph that Leica - the people who designed and build this camera - wrote. The only time I have ever had film loading issues was right at the beginning when I started out with the M, when I listened to all these ‘tips’ from online experts telling me how to do it. The moment I followed Leica’s procedure - all issues vanished. Amazing, huh? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock Posted October 10, 2022 Share #55 Posted October 10, 2022 56 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said: Hello Matlock, I don't think so. I remember in the 1960's the long leaders & I remember later, the1970's or after that, when there was the discussion in photo magazines of the shortening of the leader to its current length. In terms of the TOTAL length of the film in the cassette: There is no change. It is just the leader length that is effected. Best Regards, Michael Hello Michael, I bought my first 35mm film (Ilford FP3) on 20th June 1964 and it had standard short length leader. Maybe both were available but I have never experienced long leaders on bought film here in the UK. Regards Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted October 10, 2022 Share #56 Posted October 10, 2022 I have got this leaflet, not dated but early 60’s? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/333199-mp-not-rewinding/?do=findComment&comment=4529722'>More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 10, 2022 Share #57 Posted October 10, 2022 5 hours ago, Matlock said: Hello Michael, I bought my first 35mm film (Ilford FP3) on 20th June 1964 and it had standard short length leader. Maybe both were available but I have never experienced long leaders on bought film here in the UK. Regards Peter Hello Peter, I don't know about Ilford films. At that time I was using both Agfachrome & Kodachrome & was living both in Germany & the USofA. Both of them had long leaders in both places. It may be that some companies began using shorter earlier than others. Best Regards, Michael 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotoklaus Posted October 11, 2022 Share #58 Posted October 11, 2022 Any Camera beside screw mount- Leicas that need that long leader? Even the Conatx 1 did not need a long leader. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock Posted October 11, 2022 Share #59 Posted October 11, 2022 8 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said: Hello Peter, I don't know about Ilford films. At that time I was using both Agfachrome & Kodachrome & was living both in Germany & the USofA. Both of them had long leaders in both places. It may be that some companies began using shorter earlier than others. Best Regards, Michael Hello Michael, That would seem to tie in with the post from Pyrogallol showing the notice from Hove Camera. Best Regards, Peter 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted October 11, 2022 Share #60 Posted October 11, 2022 The first 35mm film I used was on my 12th birthday in 1965, in a new Halina Paulette. It was Kodachrome (I still have that first frame). I don't recall coming across long leaders at any time in my life until I got a IIf a year or so ago. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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