MP not rewinding

[hirohhhh]

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6 minutes ago, 250swb said:

It isn't the 'rewind wheel' that moves when you advance the film, it is just the two little red dots. Load the film (it sounds like you have that under control) then pull up the rewind knob and turn it clockwise to take up any slack inside the film cassette, turn just until you feel some slight resistance. Then as you advance the film to frame #1 you should see the two little red dots rotate anti-clockwise showing that the film is travelling through the camera correctly.

It is not important if the film is slack inside the film cassette or not, it is only consequential if you want to check the film is going through the camera by observing the red dots rotate. The point about winding the film tight inside the cassette is that you will immediately see the dots turn on advancing the film. In use the film will once again slacken inside the film cassette, so you may advance the film and the red dots don't turn every single time, but it doesn't matter, you already know the film is correctly loaded. However just to make sure it's all working properly at any time there is no harm in pulling up the rewind knob and tightening the film in the cassette just to watch the dots turn next time you advance.

 

Yeah, I meant two red dots on the rewind knob, but they were not moving. The whole knob including the dots were still, and so that's when I decided to open the body and see what's going on.

Actually, I didn't tense the film with the rewind. I just advanced it three times. Maybe that caused the problem. That happens when you shoot analog from time to time and using multiple cameras. I forget the basic things

[Vlad Soare]

9 minutes ago, hirohhhh said:

Actually, I didn't tense the film with the rewind. I just advanced it three times. Maybe that caused the problem.

No, it wasn't that. The film isn't really that loose inside the cartridge. It's only a tiny bit loose. After one or two wind-ons it will tension itself anyway.
 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Vlad Soare

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[hirohhhh]

11 minutes ago, Vlad Soare said:

No, it wasn't that. The film isn't really that loose inside the cartridge. It's only a tiny bit loose. After one or two wind-ons it will tension itself anyway.
 

Yeah, I'd say that too. It feels tense under the fingers. But what then causes that two red dots are not moving?

I'm curious to find out, because I had the same issue when I started this thread, and spent days shooting, only to realize that the roll wasn't loaded at all. And then I heard about two little red dots, and I'm paying attention to that ever since  

[plaidshirts]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:39 AM, hirohhhh said:

Yeah, I'd say that too. It feels tense under the fingers. But what then causes that two red dots are not moving?

I'm curious to find out, because I had the same issue when I started this thread, and spent days shooting, only to realize that the roll wasn't loaded at all. And then I heard about two little red dots, and I'm paying attention to that ever since  

I don’t know why the dots aren’t turning. Every film camera I’ve ever owned, including my MP, except for one, my Nikonos underwater camera, did and still does this. 
You can always gently rewind the film and feel the tension to verify even if you’re in the middle of a roll.

Edited October 8, 2022 by plaidshirts

[Huss]

4 hours ago, plaidshirts said:

I don’t know why the dots aren’t turning. Every film camera I’ve ever owned, including my MP, except for one, my Nikonos underwater camera, did and still does this. 
You can always gently rewind the film and feel the tension to verify even if you’re in the middle of a roll.

My Ricoh FF1 is like my Nikonos - the only cameras where the crank does not turn when you advance the film.

[hirohhhh]

Ghrrr, rewind on this camera drives me crazy. Every two or three rolls I have some problem...

I was at the end of the roll, and I don't know if I cocked shutter after that, but it passed 0 count and now I cannot rewind it. When I put that lever to R and rotate the rewind knob, nothing happens. I don't feel that friction like if it was rewinding for real. I can rewind forever and nothing happened. I'm tied to cock shutter 10 more times, repeated everything 10 more times, nothing happens. I opened the back door in the dark, and I can still feel the film, so it's not rewinded.

UPDATE: My film broke and it was rolled on the left spool, leaving the canister empty. Never happened to me before. I opened it again in the dark and when I didn't feel the film anymore, I turned on the lights. But after a few seconds i realized it's rolled on the other side, so I guess it's exposed all the way on the top edge.

Edited October 9, 2022 by hirohhhh

[Huss]

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How are you loading the camera?  The way Leica says to in the manual and with the diagram on the camera base (when you remove the base plate)?  Or from some youtuber's instructions?

To tear the film out of the cassette is not normal.  I cannot see how that is the fault of the camera - you have to completely ignore that the film won't wind anymore and force it, tearing it out of the cassette.  Where do you live?  Perhaps someone here is close to you and can take a look. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello hirohhhh,

2 suggestions:

1. When you are winding film to take another photo & the film IS advancing in the camera & you get to a point where the resistance increases significantly while you are winding the film: STOP WINDING NOW. There is not always enough film in a cassette for the film to be wound completely to the next frame. You CANNOT take another photo. You CANNOT finish winding to the usual stopping point. You MIGHT break the film or separate the film from the spool in the cassette.

Push down the Rewind Lever "R" & rewind the film. Don't forget to pull up the rewind knob before rewinding. (Dinosaur technology.)

2. You might try LOADING the film with the baseplate OFF & the back door OPEN.

Wind the shutter & release it.

Pull enough film leader out so that the film goes to the proper point in the tulip & the cassette fits in the other side. Check the diagram.

Slide them both in place.

Adjust the film so that it fits directly over the guide rails & you can see a sprocket tooth going thru a hole in the side of the film.

IMPORTANT:

WITH THE BACK OPEN & THE BASEPLATE OFF: Advance the film slightly & watch to see that the tulip picks up the end of the film & pulls film out of the cassette.

If the tulip does NOT "grab" the film correctly: Pull 4mm/3-16ths of an inch more film out of the cassette. If necessary guide it thru the tulip & direct it as the film would move as the advance lever pulled it out.

If necessary: Repeat the  instructions beginning 2 sentences above: WITH THE BACK OPEN .............. 

If the tulip will not grab the film there MAY be a problem with the tulip. Altho this is unlikely.

Once the tulip "grabs" the film & advances it about 1 cm/0.4 inch you can GENTLY "snug up" the film by turning the EXTENDED rewind knob when it is in its vertical position & the Rewind Lever "R" is in its vertical position. 

Advance the film another 1cm/0,4 inch & "snug" the rewind the same way again.

Push the rewind knob down.

NOW: Close the back & put the base plate on.

Wind the film to #1 & enjoy taking photos.

Don't forget to watch to make sure that the 2 little "dots" are turning.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited October 9, 2022 by Michael Geschlecht

[Huss]

7 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello hirohhhh,

2 suggestions:

1. When you are winding film & the film IS advancing in the camera & you get to a point where the resistance increases significantly while you are winding the film: STOP WINDING NOW. There is not always enough film in a cassette for the film to be wound completely to the next frame. You CANNOT take another photo. You CANNOT finish winding to the usual stopping point. You MIGHT break the film or separate the film from the spool in the cassette.

Push down the Rewind Lever "R" & rewind the film. Don't forget to pull up the rewind knob before rewinding. (Dinosaur technology.)

2. You might try loading the film with the baseplate OFF & the back door OPEN.

Wind the shutter & release it.

Pull enough film leader out so that the film goes to the proper point in the tulip & the cassette fits in the other side. Check the diagram.

Slide them both in place.

Adjust the film so that it fits directly over the guide rails & you can see a sprocket tooth going thru a hole in the side of the film.

IMPORTANT:

WITH THE BACK OPEN & THE BASEPLATE OFF: Advance the film slightly & watch to see that the tulip picks up the end of the film & pulls film out of the cassette.

If the tulip does NOT "grab" the film correctly: Pull 4mm/3-16ths of an inch more film out of the cassette. If necessary guide it thru the tulip & direct it as the film would move as the advance lever pulled it out.

If necessary: Repeat the  instructions beginning 2 sentences above: WITH THE BACK OPEN .............. 

If the tulip will not grab the film there MAY be a problem with the tulip. Altho this is unlikely.

Once the tulip "grabs" the film & advances it about 1 cm/0.4 inch you can GENTLY "snug up" the film by turning the EXTENDED rewind knob when it is in its vertical position & the Rewind Lever "R" is in its vertical position. 

Advance the film another 1cm/0,4 inch & "snug" the rewind the same way again.

Push the rewind knob down.

NOW: Close the back & put the base plate on.

Wind the film to #1 & enjoy taking photos.

Don't forget to watch to make sure that the 2 little "dots" are turning.

Best Regards,

Michael

Michael, no offense but that is terrible advice.  The camera is designed to be loaded with the back closed and the base plate on.  As mentioned in the owners' manual.

It is very simple to load, and the tulip on the baseplate positions the film correctly which is why it needs to be closed.  Just follow Leica's instructions, they designed and built the camera, they know what they are doing.

Hiro, I have no idea how you are loading your camera, but you just need to follow Leica's very simple, very basic instructions.  And once you have reached the end of the film, stop winding.  Do not try to squeeze out one more frame - that is how you ripped the film off the spool.  It also is obvious when you reach the end of the roll, because to continue you would need way more effort than before to advance the winder - and this is not subtle!  And doing that, you will tear the film.

[hirohhhh]

21 minutes ago, Huss said:

How are you loading the camera?  The way Leica says to in the manual and with the diagram on the camera base (when you remove the base plate)?  Or from some youtuber's instructions?

To tear the film out of the cassette is not normal.  I cannot see how that is the fault of the camera - you have to completely ignore that the film won't wind anymore and force it, tearing it out of the cassette.  Where do you live?  Perhaps someone here is close to you and can take a look. 

I think I know what happened. When I was loading the film, I pull out the leader a bit more than it was shown on the baseplate diagram. Then I tried to put it back a little bit (around 1/2 inch) by rotating the spool (not sure if this is the right way, I never had to do it before), and while doing it, I think I tighten it a bit too much so it teared up at that point. So it's definitely not the camera's fault , it's just that I'm not used much to film rangefinders after spending whole my career with digital cameras and Rolleiflex that doesn't have rewind.

But hey, every mistake is a lesson.

Edited October 9, 2022 by hirohhhh

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Huss,

I would think that the words "terrible advice", especially since they are factually wrong, ARE offensive. This is supposed to be a friendly Forum. Nobody is "falling off a cliff" here. A better choice of words might have been "alternate advice". There is NO harm done by hirohhhh following my advice. The camera will have the film loaded correctly.

It is good to load the film the way you suggested once a person understands what is going on.

Sometimes it is better to "learn to walk" before a person tries to "run".

It is NOT the "end of the World" for a person to figure out what is going on & to understand how a mechanism functions.

Once there is a good understanding of the mechanics then a person can more easily do things they way that the instructions say.

Loading the camera a few times the way that I suggested can sometimes give a person a clearer understanding of what they are doing.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited October 9, 2022 by Michael Geschlecht

[Huss]

Where do you live?  If you happen to be in the Los Angeles area I would be happy to help.  The tightening it too much tearing it does not make much sense..

The best thing is to just follow Leica's very simple instructions on how to load the film.  They know what they are doing!

[250swb]

The tulip simply lines up the film on the gear teeth that advance the film, if it's possible to see the teeth are engaging with the sprocket holes it is possible to wind a dummy film through the camera and back again just to observe what is happening. By now the OP must have plenty of dummy films and it would be a good idea.

However I think something catastrophic is happening in the case of the OP and every single 'fault' seems to involve 'finger trouble'. Since 1973 and exposing thousands and thousands of films and using many different types of camera I have never ever ripped the film out of the cassette. It takes brute force to do that. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by 250swb

[hirohhhh]

@Michael Geschlecht, @250swb

That's a good idea to learn how the film is rotated inside. Because I pulled out the leader a bit more than what's shown on the baseplate drawing, I wasn't sure, should I curl it up or down, so I tried to pull in the extra film back into the canister by rotating the spool and I think that's when it teared up. But, yeah, good idea to put a dummy film and see how it works.

@Huss I'm in Bay Area, but unfortunately I don't plan a trip to LA anytime soon. Thanks for offering help!

[Matlock]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:30 AM, hirohhhh said:

Today I loaded new roll, advanced and cocked shutter couple times as I always do, but the rewind wheel with two red dots didn’t move. I remember reading on this forum that this is the sign that the film isn’t loaded. I repead advancing and cocking shutter 6-7 more times carefully paying attention if the rewind wheel is rotating, but it didn’t. Then I decided to open the bottom plate and see what’s going on, but the film was loaded and the roll was half way through the spool.

Sure, I exposed film to the light, because all this was happening outside in the middle of day, but I’m wondering what happened?! As I mentioned previously, this is a brand new MP, purchased in Leica store, I shot less than 30 rolls in total with it, so I’m completely sure that the camera is not faulty. But then what I was doing wrong and how can I be sure that the film is winded if the rewind wheel is not rotating?

If the red dots are not rotating then the film is not advancing as the spigot with the dots is directly connected to the film cassette spool, it must rotate if the film is advancing. The only time the dots may not rotate is the first couple of advances when any slack is being taken up. Are you sure you were observing the red dots and not just the rewind knob which does not rotate?

[hirohhhh]

I just loaded another roll, did as per instructions on the base plate. Closed the back door and the base plate. Winded & cocked three times. Film advanced to 1 count, then I took couple photos but the two red dots are not moving at all.

Now I don’t know should I rewind the film to zero, or leave it as is…. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by hirohhhh

[madNbad]

8 minutes ago, hirohhhh said:

I just loaded another roll, did as per instructions on the base plate. Closed the back door and the base plate. Winded & cocked three times. Film advanced to 1 count, then I took couple photos but the two red dots are not moving at all.

Now I don’t know should I rewind the film to zero, or leave it as is…. 

When you load the film cassette into the body, make sure it’s all they way in and engaging the rewind. You may have to push the cassette in a bit but make sure it’s seating properly. If the red dots aren’t turning, rewind the film a bit and try again. It cheaper to use a roll for practice than having problems in the field. 

[hirohhhh]

30 minutes ago, madNbad said:

When you load the film cassette into the body, make sure it’s all they way in and engaging the rewind. You may have to push the cassette in a bit but make sure it’s seating properly. If the red dots aren’t turning, rewind the film a bit and try again. It cheaper to use a roll for practice than having problems in the field. 

I rewind it a little bit and now it’s ok! Damn, every other roll in this MP have some problem, it’s frustrating.

is there a way to reset the counter. I’m now on 6th shot and should be 1st or 2nd after rewind.

[BradS]

1 hour ago, hirohhhh said:

I just loaded another roll, did as per instructions on the base plate. Closed the back door and the base plate. Winded & cocked three times. Film advanced to 1 count, then I took couple photos but the two red dots are not moving at all.

Now I don’t know should I rewind the film to zero, or leave it as is…. 

 

45 minutes ago, hirohhhh said:

I rewind it a little bit and now it’s ok! Damn, every other roll in this MP have some problem, it’s frustrating.

is there a way to reset the counter. I’m now on 6th shot and should be 1st or 2nd after rewind.

 

Please try to relax and enjoy your nice camera. Just take pictures now. Don't worry about this stuff. Read the Leica User manual and follow the instructions. Do not over think it....and please just relax.

I'm in Sonora...probably 100+ miles away. I will come and meet you and we can go through this if you really want to. Send me a PM say when and where.

...or go visit the Leica store in SF...or Camera West in Walnut Creek...I'm sure they will be very happy to go through this with you.

Edited October 9, 2022 by BradS

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[Huss]

23 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Huss,

I would think that the words "terrible advice", especially since they are factually wrong, ARE offensive. This is supposed to be a friendly Forum. Nobody is "falling off a cliff" here. A better choice of words might have been "alternate advice". There is NO harm done by hirohhhh following my advice. The camera will have the film loaded correctly.

It is good to load the film the way you suggested once a person understands what is going on.

Sometimes it is better to "learn to walk" before a person tries to "run".

It is NOT the "end of the World" for a person to figure out what is going on & to understand how a mechanism functions.

Once there is a good understanding of the mechanics then a person can more easily do things they way that the instructions say.

Loading the camera a few times the way that I suggested can sometimes give a person a clearer understanding of what they are doing.

Best Regards,

Michael

I’m sorry Michael but I respectfully disagree.  There is no need to “learn to walk” before trying to run.  There is no running in following Leica’s extremely simple instructions.  Remove base, extend film leader so it is long enough to enter the tulip. Drop film canister in making sure the end of film leader is in the tulip. Reattach base. Wind on.  That is it, it doesn't get simpler than that.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Huss