Leica M Monochrome - Film simulation

[TeleElmar135mm]

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Hi,

each analog film has it's own color sensitive and that is also a part of his character. When I simulate a analog film (like Tri-X) with a Color Camera and Silver Efex, I see that in the plug-in the color sensitive changes in dependence to the original but has logically no effect to the monochrome image. So, mostly only the curve-character has effect to the simulation. 

So my question is, how close is a analog simulation to the original without the consideration of the color sensitive? Perhaps somebody tried ist out or has information about the color sensitive of the M10 Mono. It could be interesting to see if she is corresponding to a analog film or has the sensitive more a linear ("digital")  layout?

[pedaes]

14 minutes ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

effect to the simulation. 

Any simulation is no more than a software engineers guess at what channel tweaks will give something that represents the colour palette/grain structure of a specific film. The only way to get a perfect 'film look' is to use film and wet print it.

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[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb pedaes:

Any simulation is no more than a software engineers guess at what channel tweaks will give something that represents the colour palette/grain structure of a specific film. The only way to get a perfect 'film look' is to use film and wet print it.

I fully agree - any simulation is a approach to the original. But my question aimed to quality of the simulation and the difference between a M10 Color simaulation vs. a M10 Monochrome simulation.

[pedaes]

4 minutes ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

Monochrome simulation.

 Not sure what you are asking, but stating the obvious there is no Bayer (colour array) filter in a Monochrom (no 'e').

[Keith (M)]

3 hours ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

So my question is, how close is a analog simulation to the original without the consideration of the color sensitive? Perhaps somebody tried ist out or has information about the color sensitive of the M10 Mono. 

As @pedaeshas pointed out, there being no Bayer array there is no colour information in a Monochrom file.  It is better to think in spectral sensitivity terms and like with b&w films, changes need to be made at time of taking via filters.

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Keith (M):

As @pedaeshas pointed out, there being no Bayer array there is no colour information in a Monochrom file.  It is better to think in spectral sensitivity terms and like with b&w films, changes need to be made at time of taking via filters.

Thanks Keith. I think it was a problem in translation. Spectral sensitivity seems to be the correct term what I called color sensitive of analog films in my first post. When you simulate analog films photos from a color M you get different results depending what film simulation you select (Tri-X, Pan-F etc.). Each film has its own spectral sensitive which is part of the simulation and why anlog films get different results when they translate colors to grey tones. With a Monochrom you don't have this possibility (no Bayer-Filer - no color information = that was clear from the beginning - and with a filter you don't change the spectral sensitivity of the film, you change the spectral composition of the light).

My question was, has anybody experiences what simulation is closer to an original film: The color one with or the Monochrom without the possibility of the implementation of spectral information of the simulation plug-in. The spectral sensitivity of the Monochrom - this seems to be the important question -  is in this case more crucial.

[Sandro_m]

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My experience with M10M is that it’s not similar to any film, it’s basically linear.

I use b&w filters in shooting, and pay much more attention to highlights, because with a linear tone “curve” it’s pretty easy to burn them. The sensor is less forgiving than the average film and developer combination. 

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, Sandro_m said:

My experience with M10M is that it’s not similar to any film, it’s basically linear.

I use b&w filters in shooting, and pay much more attention to highlights, because with a linear tone “curve” it’s pretty easy to burn them. The sensor is less forgiving than the average film and developer combination. 

Takes only seconds to manipulate the tone curve with digital, even picture by picture. 

Slide film users are also quite familiar with having to mind the highlights. 
 

Jeff

[a.noctilux]

My answer ...learn to use colored filters, same as film.

Two advantages, reduce/enhance the overall contrast of the subject depending on colors.

 

With several years of Leica M Monochrom use and before that different films, I can say that using colored filters are the only way to manage the renderings.

I tried to work out with each sensor on MM1 and M246, in each case the two type of sensor have different response to same colored filter, but the differences are light,

so I don't bother anymore and use colored filters as if I use b&w film (mainly as if Neopan 400 as I know better this film).

[ramarren]

I don't try to "simulate" films. To me, that's a waste of time. I'd rather learn what a given digital camera sees and work with that. When I render B&W from color raw files out of, say, the CL or M-D 262, I built up a set of two semi-pathological rendering LR presets that netted my usual starting points. I also have a set of LR presets that render the effect of using Yellow, Orange, Red, Green, and Blue filters on a typical panchromatic B&W film, like XP2 Super. 

What I did do as one of the first testing actions when I got my M10 Mono was to snap a photograph of an XRite Color Checker with the CL and then render the raw file with each of the above filters, and then one with all the saturation sliders zeroed out. I then snapped a photo of the XRite Color Checker with the M10 Mono using no filter, Orange, and Green filters in turn. Comparing these exposures to the rendered results with the CL exposure gave me a good feel for what the M10 Mono's spectral sensitivity was and how it compared to my previous B&W rendering work with color raw files. To my delight, the native, Orange, and Green filter captures with the M10 Mono run pretty close to the desaturation and two starting point filters of my color raw rendering presets, with some differences, and are also in-between the Orange and Yellow preset, and the Green and Yellow preset. Which filter I choose depends upon my expectation of the average subject matter in a given shoot, in daylight, and in artificial light I find the unfiltered M10 Mono does the right thing most of the time. 

From there I've simply gotten on with making pictures and exploring the incredible sensitivity of the M10 Monochrom...

G

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Tree and Hedge - Santa Clara 2022
Leica M10 Monochrome + Summarit-M 75mm f/2.4
ISO 500 @ f/8 @ 1/125 @ Green filter

 

[Ed Stacey]

Hi

There  is no way to convert to what a B/W film  would have seen with a Monochrome Leica image.  The information is not there. 

Similar to trying to convert one B/W image from one brand of film to an other.

You need to have a colour image to convert to B/W just as B/W film would have captured the image.

The Leica Q2 monochrom captures the image in both an old way, B/W  but also in a new way, it's response to light.

EdS

[jaapv]

Actually, Leica matched the tonal response of the MM1 to Delta 100.

[dylan]

Does anyone know if Leica matched the tonal response of the M10M to a particular B & W film?

 

[colint544]

On 6/12/2022 at 2:12 AM, jaapv said:

Actually, Leica matched the tonal response of the MM1 to Delta 100.

I did not know that. Interesting.

[TeleElmar135mm]

Am 12.6.2022 um 03:12 schrieb jaapv:

Actually, Leica matched the tonal response of the MM1 to Delta 100.

Thanks for the information - but this raises another question (sorry): Is there a change in tonal response from MM1 to the actual M10 Monochrom? In the past the "color Ms" change their color look depending which sensor was used (CCD/CMIOS-Sensor) - so there could be a change. 

[jaapv]

Shoot a Greta-Macbeth colour chart and judge for yourself. 

[PeterGA]

B&W film has greater ability to capture greater amounts of information at both ends of the tonal curve -  based on current chip technology it is not possible to 'replicate' the look of all B&W film and all possible development routines of it. People favour B&W film (not counting  hipster fashionista here) the more that they can make use of the subtle, nuanced and gradual movement to absolute white or absolute black ie information management ( luminosity capture behaviour ) at the tails.

What a monitor can display in terms of nuanced Black to white is again - nowhere near what an old fashioned silver rich paper is capable of.

So is it the look on a computer monitor that is the quest or is it the look on printed silver rich paper that one is after- the latter is much harder to achieve by referencing attempted matching of tonal curves of film.

[ramarren]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:24 AM, PeterGA said:

B&W film has greater ability to capture greater amounts of information at both ends of the tonal curve -  based on current chip technology it is not possible to 'replicate' the look of all B&W film and all possible development routines of it. People favour B&W film (not counting  hipster fashionista here) the more that they can make use of the subtle, nuanced and gradual movement to absolute white or absolute black ie information management ( luminosity capture behaviour ) at the tails.

What a monitor can display in terms of nuanced Black to white is again - nowhere near what an old fashioned silver rich paper is capable of.

So is it the look on a computer monitor that is the quest or is it the look on printed silver rich paper that one is after- the latter is much harder to achieve by referencing attempted matching of tonal curves of film.

"Good looking black and white photographs" is my quest. I could care less what medium recorded them, and I view the end results of my efforts on both display screens and on paper.  

I also don't care whether what I get with my M4-2 and whatever film matches what I get with my M10-M ... It's irrelevant if the photograph has been rendered well and is worth looking at. 

G

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Lancia Flavia 2000 Coupé - Sunnyvale 2022 :: Leica M10 Monochrom + Summicron-M 50mm : no filter, just a snapshot

A very pretty car! And the photo looks good to my eye, quite true to the tones in the original scene as if seen with an ISO 100 B&W film.

[sarav]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:44 PM, Sandro_m said:

My experience with M10M is that it’s not similar to any film, it’s basically linear.

I use b&w filters in shooting, and pay much more attention to highlights, because with a linear tone “curve” it’s pretty easy to burn them. The sensor is less forgiving than the average film and developer combination. 

That's true! With a good scanner you can recover highlights 4 or 5 stop over exposed. With M10M I have to underexpose by 1 or 2 and then open shadows. M10M is like film slides (positive), you have to have a safe area in highlights.

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[rtai]

I don’t believe I have ever shot with Delta 100 so to me the clean M10M image is like Acros my film of choice for that speed. I like the Monochrom out of the camera DNG with as little manipulation as possible just enough to correct exposure and some highlight/shadow adjustment. Once I got Silver EFEX I started going nuts with the filters and the final image looked like any other digital image from any other source.