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M11 adopts the Japanese~American look to color science


Jim B

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While people are wondering what went wrong, a quick trip over to the M11 images thread will leave you more confused than ever!  Why wasn’t more attention paid to maintaining color science between the various bodies?  That guy that got banned was right, the magic is gone… they look like they could have been shot on any of the modern high res cameras. What a shame.

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5 hours ago, Jim B said:

While people are wondering what went wrong, a quick trip over to the M11 images thread will leave you more confused than ever!  Why wasn’t more attention paid to maintaining color science between the various bodies?  That guy that got banned was right, the magic is gone… they look like they could have been shot on any of the modern high res cameras. What a shame.

Actually they look more like a small format Hasselblad than any of my Asian based cameras. Not that it matters. The sensor wafer is such a small part of the colour equation anyway. Change software and you're going to get different. colours.

None of the digital Ms or digital Leicas, for that matter have tried to colour match their predecessor.

People might not like the colours. That's perfectly valid. But it isn't the silicon. It's everything else above it.

Gordon

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I hoped that nobody would respond to this post and that it would drop into oblivion. No such luck :).
I would never judge a camera's output by other people's forum posts. 
I agree with Gordon.

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16 minutes ago, frame-it said:

what IS the Japanese-American Color Science Look?

 

Whatever it is, it must be something bad.

Colors of Fuji Velvia and Kodak Ektachrome combined?

:)

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Inside sources report that the upcoming Lederhosen edition of the M11 will feature Bavarian color science.

Here is a screenshot from an early prototype:

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3 hours ago, frame-it said:

what IS the Japanese-American Color Science Look?

I don't know - maybe this 1970s Fujifilm ad explains.....

But I agree with those who point out how many links in the color chain there are, after the data leaves the sensor. Software choice, profile/calibration choice, whose "Auto" or "As Shot" or "Custom" white balance is used, and so on.

To me the M11 at "default" settings, does hail back to the "basic" M9 color - some magenta tint, at least with the Adobe Standard M9 profile. Which many people love.

But again was "optional" - I made, and saved as the default setting, my own M9 profile, which dialed out some of the Kodak/Leica/Adobe magenta, and that was "my" M9 color. ;)

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7 hours ago, adan said:

I don't know - maybe this 1970s Fujifilm ad explains.....

But I agree with those who point out how many links in the color chain there are, after the data leaves the sensor. Software choice, profile/calibration choice, whose "Auto" or "As Shot" or "Custom" white balance is used, and so on.

To me the M11 at "default" settings, does hail back to the "basic" M9 color - some magenta tint, at least with the Adobe Standard M9 profile. Which many people love.

But again was "optional" - I made, and saved as the default setting, my own M9 profile, which dialed out some of the Kodak/Leica/Adobe magenta, and that was "my" M9 color. ;)

I remember a story some Fujifilm rep told me a while ago that Fuji DID in fact have a guy they trusted all his color science to. For films and later for film emulations on digital. One guy.
Maybe it was just Japanese whispers.

Edited by Al Brown
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The colour science erm alchemy rather depends on stuff like lens used, exposure choices, ambient light at point of capture, WB settings, which RAW app you used and which RAW app profile you selected (also if relevant), which SOOC jpeg settings you used.

FWIW I've personally owned three different Ms and played with sample DNGs from all of them and none of them had exactly the same colours and tonality as each other, also every new M platform  has more DR than the previous one (and a different sensor and CFA and base chip calibration) and this inherently changes the look of the 'SOOC' base RAW image.

I have to wonder if the OP would be happier being an M10R user, making gritty photos and finding his groove some where around the key of G.... 

Edited by Adam Bonn
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Are you talking about your own experience with M11 or looking at random images in the internet? Be careful, IMO the LR profiles were not great in the beginning.

In my case it took me always some time when I was switching from M9 to M240 to M10..to M11, but then I found which profiles and parameters to use and never wanted to switch back. One time I switched back to M9 (from M240) just to realize that I already started to value the sensor of the M240 (with its higher DR and more consistent color in mixed light) For me its more important how my own files come out vs what I see in an image thread.

 

Edited by tom0511
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I see nothing wrong in the M11 raw files. Compared to my M240 i see a bit less yellowish tint and significantly less red clippings but in both cases dng files are easy to tweak in PP. Perhaps the OP is a jpeg shooter?

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On 6/2/2022 at 5:10 PM, Jim B said:

While people are wondering what went wrong, a quick trip over to the M11 images thread will leave you more confused than ever!  Why wasn’t more attention paid to maintaining color science between the various bodies?  That guy that got banned was right, the magic is gone… they look like they could have been shot on any of the modern high res cameras. What a shame.

I agree that Leica haven't been able to explain what their color philosophy has been for the M11, and amidst confusions as to firmware glitches, camera profiles available, three sensor resolution sizes and more ... it's still seems up in the air if it's Leica's deliberate colors or if it is the default that the sensor/firmware could produce. Whatever the color philosophy is, it's not very well documented. So you can be happy with what you get, which many seem to be, or you can be wondering, as you do, what the philosophy is, or as I do, if they are still working on it.  

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5 hours ago, lct said:

I see nothing wrong in the M11 raw files. Compared to my M240 i see a bit less yellowish tint and significantly less red clippings but in both cases dng files are easy to tweak in PP. Perhaps the OP is a jpeg shooter?

seems like its another hit-n-run thread..the OP hasn't replied since their 1st post

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2 hours ago, Overgaard said:

I agree that Leica haven't been able to explain what their color philosophy has been for the M11, and amidst confusions as to firmware glitches, camera profiles available, three sensor resolution sizes and more ... it's still seems up in the air if it's Leica's deliberate colors or if it is the default that the sensor/firmware could produce. Whatever the color philosophy is, it's not very well documented. So you can be happy with what you get, which many seem to be, or you can be wondering, as you do, what the philosophy is, or as I do, if they are still working on it.  

Have Leica ever explained a colour philosophy?

Sure us users like to say oh the M9 looks just like Kodachrome (sic) or slide film etc, but pretty sure that info isn’t in the brochure

So much criticism of any camera’s colours is actually more the way the RAW app chooses that camera’s colours… the exact same DNG looks very different in C1/LR/DxO etc etc and how much help does the camera company even give the software houses (apart from maybe a loan unit for them to make their profiles or even just some sensor data)

Leica embeds a profile in all their DNGs but this profile is so basic it doesn’t even meet adobe’s recommended spec for an embedded profile, so IMHO the Leica profile is just the bare minimum the DNG needs to get by (see notes below)

It’s entirely possible (and historically likely based on past Ms) that Leica will tweak how the WB works to change the colours a little. It’s just as historically likely that adobe won’t change their profile (they hardly ever do, like not since the M8 irrc)

From the outside looking in (I’m not an M11 owner, M9 and 10) the M11 seems like the 240 all over again… folks complaining it has too many bells and whistles, not a real M (sic), renders like a Sony, works like all the other mirrorless cameras, lots of bugs.

and much like the 240, firmware updates from Leica and users getting to grips with the camera and reading about the best way to work with it (a lot from your website I think Thorsten!)  will see the M11 elevated in standing soon enough…

boring notes

off the top of my head… in a dual illuminant profile adobe recommends 36 core lines of code, supplemented with appropriately 1800 colour tweaks to transform un-white balanced RAW data into colours. Leica’s profiles have 18 core lines of code.

and incidentally, the adobe pipeline expects those lines of code (well the 36 anyway) and if it doesn’t have them it basically tries to guess the D50 chromatic adaptation for itself! (ie no we’re not getting a purer RAW experience with Leica’s stripped down profiles)

(this doesn’t mean that the adobe profile is always nicer than the Leica one. Far from it in fact)

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Pretty much agree Adam.  I've owned every digital M generation and don't remember Leica advertising any given model as mimicking XYZ film.  There are some other handling / function issues that bug me about the M11, but color is one area where I think the M11 does well.  I am hesitant to say that every M11 DNG starts in a better place vs this or that previous digital M, but it is not too often I see something that looks really out of whack.  Thus far, the Leica M11 raws have been the most malleable in terms of moving around colors in Capture One and Photoshop.

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