Camera scanning film (w/ tether)

[bdolzani]

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Hi all, I know this topic has been discussed from time to time. Quick Q:

Is anyone using a digital M for scanning, and furthermore, using the multi-function hand grip to tether?

I've been using my 240 to scan (with a Nikon adapted 60mm macro lens), and only just realized from another thread that its handgrip can make it tether. 

Anyone use the grip? I'm shooting less film lately due to the hassle of scanning & loading into computer...and I think a tether could be more inspiring.

What else do you guys use for camera scanning (other brands or setups...)? Is there any disadvantage to scanning with a Fuji crop sensor in case I sell the 240? (I am awaiting a M246 as I am very committed these days to B&W). 

brian

Edited May 27, 2022 by bdolzani

[250swb]

Not sure what you mean by tethering in the scanning process but I use a Nikon Z7 with the FTZ adapter to the Nikkor 60mm D Micro lens, a Kaiser Slimlite for illumination, copy stand, and various negative holders for different formats. This thread is probably more appropriate to the Film or Digtial Processing threads but the ease of scanning with a digital camera is worth pursuing. 

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[nicci78]

2 hours ago, bdolzani said:

What else do you guys use for camera scanning (other brands or setups...)? Is there any disadvantage to scanning with a Fuji crop sensor in case I sell the 240? (I am awaiting a M246 as I am very committed these days to B&W). 

You can scan your negs with APS-C without problem. You can even scan with m4/3 cropped to 3:2 aspect ratio. 
 

24x36 negative film is not high resolution. Even 16MP sensor is okay. 

Positive film may require higher MP counts. 

[LocalHero1953]

I use the SL2-S and the Apo-Macro-Elmarit-R 100 on a tripod for scanning film at 1:1, without separate tethering - I just view the image on the LCD. I set the camera to 15sec interval shooting and feed the full 36 frame strip through a Essential Film Holder above a Kaiser Slimlight. For 4x5 I use the 24-90SL zoom instead.

[Crem]

2 hours ago, bdolzani said:

What else do you guys use for camera scanning (other brands or setups...)? Is there any disadvantage to scanning with a Fuji crop sensor in case I sell the 240? (I am awaiting a M246 as I am very committed these days to B&W). 

Originally I wanted to go with a full Leica based scanning setup, but decided against it for various reasons (price and lens choices mostly). I gave up and went with the following setup: Sony A7C, Sigma 70 Macro, Negative Supply basic basic riser (copy stand), Kaiser Slimlite Plano light source, Essential Film Holder (both 35 and 120 masks), and a cheap Ebay tripod mount for the Sigma 70 Macro. Ignoring cost, I would have gone with a SL2 (or SL2S) and the same lens, but I can't ignore cost. I highly recommend the Essential Film holder and getting a cheap tripod mount so you can use the body with other lenses without having to remove the macro lens from the stand. I'm super happy with the setup. It works great with Lightroom and Negative Lab Pro. Sony's tethering software is reasonably good. I wish I could tether using Lightroom instead of having to use an external application, but it's not a big deal.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Crem

[bdolzani]

Thanks everyone. Just to be clear I like my setup - have a great copy stand, Slimite, and Digitaliza neg holder. All good. (I do think a holder where you can thread an uncut roll through it would be even better - with the Digitaliza I cut my 6 frame strips then have to keep changing it out every 6 frames...definitely slow).

I thought a USB tether would transfer the files directly to the computer, perhaps in a folder. That way you can keep the camera on the stand without having to get the card out and put it in the card reader and into the computer...just one less step. I'm completely unaware of how tether works in a studio shoot for instance. Seen it done though on youtube...

So everyone so far here just takes the card out and transfers to computer that way?

I know newer cameras and DSLRs can tether naturally. The 240 grip is around $450 used I see...definitely an expense to save a step. 

[bdolzani]

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20 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

You can scan your negs with APS-C without problem. You can even scan with m4/3 cropped to 3:2 aspect ratio. 
 

24x36 negative film is not high resolution. Even 16MP sensor is okay. 

Positive film may require higher MP counts. 

thanks! I could adapt the Nikon macro lens to one of my Fujis instead of using the 240.

Edited May 27, 2022 by bdolzani

[bdolzani]

18 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I use the SL2-S and the Apo-Macro-Elmarit-R 100 on a tripod for scanning film at 1:1, without separate tethering - I just view the image on the LCD. I set the camera to 15sec interval shooting and feed the full 36 frame strip through a Essential Film Holder above a Kaiser Slimlight. For 4x5 I use the 24-90SL zoom instead.

Nice setup. But you have to then remove the card and transfer the files...

Are you able to get the 4x5 frames in one shot? My largest format is 6x6. I don't think I've tried camera scanning that format yet, just my Epson scanner. 

[bdolzani]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Not sure what you mean by tethering in the scanning process but I use a Nikon Z7 with the FTZ adapter to the Nikkor 60mm D Micro lens, a Kaiser Slimlite for illumination, copy stand, and various negative holders for different formats. This thread is probably more appropriate to the Film or Digtial Processing threads but the ease of scanning with a digital camera is worth pursuing. 

I'm glad I made the jump to camera scanning, it's better quality than a flatbed for 35mm. However I still think it's kind of weird. It messes with me a bit and makes me think Well why not just shoot digital...the flatbed for some reason felt like 'real' scanning. Yet I see now the quality is worse. However that's what I associated with the 'film look' when I first started.

PS oh and that's my lens too :-). I had considered Well should I just use a Nikon DSLR with the native Nikon lens...I don't have one though. But they are quite cheap now. I have a large collection of Nikon F lenses, but only an F100 to use them with, besides adapted to the M and Fujis.

Edited May 27, 2022 by bdolzani

[LocalHero1953]

Just now, bdolzani said:

Nice setup. But you have to then remove the card and transfer the files...

Are you able to get the 4x5 frames in one shot? My largest format is 6x6. I don't think I've tried camera scanning that format yet, just my Epson scanner. 

I don't find transferring files by SD card slow - a minute or so for two films the other night. I guess it depends on your laptop/PC.

The 24-90SL conveniently covers 4x5 at 90mm. I say "conveniently" because gravity pulls the zoom to its maximum extension anyway! I started scanning by using the multishot/pixel-shift mode, but found that I reduced most of my scans back to 24mp anyway. I now only use multishot if I think I'm going to print big.

[bdolzani]

15 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I don't find transferring files by SD card slow - a minute or so for two films the other night. I guess it depends on your laptop/PC.

This is putting into sharp relief how irritated I've become :-). I couple years ago I'd sit all afternoon with the flatbed taking hours and now I apparently can't stand taking the sd card out and dragging the files to the Mac! 

I had just envisioned the tether making every frame click go right to the computer. Click bam. Sounded good.  🙂

 

15 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The 24-90SL conveniently covers 4x5 at 90mm. 

very nice. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by bdolzani

[250swb]

37 minutes ago, bdolzani said:

I'm glad I made the jump to camera scanning, it's better quality than a flatbed for 35mm. However I still think it's kind of weird. It messes with me a bit and makes me think Well why not just shoot digital...the flatbed for some reason felt like 'real' scanning. Yet I see now the quality is worse. However that's what I associated with the 'film look' when I first started.

PS oh and that's my lens too :-). I had considered Well should I just use a Nikon DSLR with the native Nikon lens...I don't have one though. But they are quite cheap now. I have a large collection of Nikon F lenses, but only an F100 to use them with, besides adapted to the M and Fujis.

My pal a pro photographer uses a Nikon D810 that he got second hand for scanning so I'm not suggesting you get a Z camera. But after the contact sheet, which arguably a flatbed scanner is best at, scanning an image becomes 1/15th of a second compared with several minutes. But it is the digital contact sheet side that needs addressing as much as the final scan. When you get both in a happy place you will feel like shooting film again.

[madNbad]

One of the biggest advantage to tethering is reducing camera shake. If you have the right software, framing and capturing is done with the click of a mouse. I’m surprised the M240 doesn’t offer a way to offer live view via cable. I’ve tried tethering my Sony A7II but the Sony software is balky on the Mac OS and since Sony never offers a firmware update, there is no way to do it wirelessly. Look around on the Negative Supply site and the Negative Lab Pro software site. Often there is advice from both the product manufacturers and users of how to get better results. Currently, I’m using a Sony A7II with a FE90 macro attached to the Negative Supply Pro Riser 2, their Negative Carrier MK 1 and lighting is from the 5x7 Lightsource Pro 95 CRI. For conversation software it’s RAW Power from Gentleman Coders. I like it because it can be used as a standalone or for as a plug in for Apple Photos. Now I just have to figure out how to tether.

[Crem]

41 minutes ago, madNbad said:

One of the biggest advantage to tethering is reducing camera shake. If you have the right software, framing and capturing is done with the click of a mouse. I’m surprised the M240 doesn’t offer a way to offer live view via cable. I’ve tried tethering my Sony A7II but the Sony software is balky on the Mac OS and since Sony never offers a firmware update, there is no way to do it wirelessly. Look around on the Negative Supply site and the Negative Lab Pro software site. Often there is advice from both the product manufacturers and users of how to get better results. Currently, I’m using a Sony A7II with a FE90 macro attached to the Negative Supply Pro Riser 2, their Negative Carrier MK 1 and lighting is from the 5x7 Lightsource Pro 95 CRI. For conversation software it’s RAW Power from Gentleman Coders. I like it because it can be used as a standalone or for as a plug in for Apple Photos. Now I just have to figure out how to tether.

This is very true. Also I found it useful with my Sony rig to turn off image stabilization and turn on electronic shutter. It then becomes very easy to remotely control the camera and get perfect camera shake free photos of the negatives.

Sony tethering uses their Imaging Edge software for Mac & Windows. One tip: I'll occasionally get an error saying something like Imaging Edge can't connect the camera. It turns out I have to close Lightroom before I try to connect via Imaging Edge. The reason appears to be that Lightroom is attempting to connect to my tethered camera and thus prevents Imaging Edge from connecting. Simple fix: I close Lightroom, start Imaging Edge, connect the camera, then finally start Lightroom. I can then quickly capture all the negatives, import into Lightroom, and convert everything in a few clicks with Negative Lab Pro. 

[madNbad]

Thanks for the useful tips. One of the aspects of camera scanning I enjoy is learning a new area of photography. To me, using a digital camera is convenient and makes getting good images easier but I enjoy the challenge film offers. Not having the space. even one to convert, for a traditional wet darkroom camera scanning is faster than using a Plustek and delivers RAW images. 

[pippy]

Partly out of curiosity for a possible 'Then and Now' project I'm working on I've only just started (as in this week) to use a digi-M to scan Bn'W neg film and the results are ok (considering the source material)...

Camera set-up is pretty straightforward. I use a Visoflex III (which is NOT an EVF....) fitted with the 65mm f3.5 Elmar and use the inevitable 16464 OTZFO Universal Focussing Mount. Camera of choice has been both M Monochrom (which I can use with the 3rd party 'M9 Tether' sofware) and M-D (which I can't). As everything is locked-down solid on tripod and stands I use the camera's self timer to circumvent any possible camera shake. In practice things work so smoothly that I found no real advantage shooting tethered; I simply 'scanned' one roll at a time and removed the memory card to download this 'latest batch' which were then all processed-out together. For me this actually worked out to be a faster route than tethering(*).

The 65mm Elmar only lets me get down to around 1:2 rather than 1:1 but having carried out a few experiments with 'normal' 50mm lenses which DID let me get down nearer to 1:1 reproduction ratio the issue I discovered with all 50mm lenses was to do with field-curvature and edge-definition. In this regard the 65mm Elmar was head and shoulders above the rest and even with the lower pixel-count which was inevitable the results from the Elmar were actually sharper when taken as an average across the frame. Obviously different 50mm lenses will render differently and it will be a case of 'Swings and Roundabouts' so end use will dictate whether overall sharpness overrides pixellation.

I haven't yet settled on the most convenient rig to hold the film strips so that's the next issue which must be addressed.

Just for Fits'n'Giggles...

My first 'thinking about things to see if this camera and lens pairing might possibly work' set-up was done purely on a whim and to say that it was 'Heath Robinson-esque' is pretty much on the mark. In the best tradition of Blue Peter here is a snap (in reality the studio was in darkness but, of course, shot as such this pic of the set-up wouldn't have been possible) of my first "Squeezy-Bottle and Sellotape" rig. Flash-head's modelling-bulb was constant light-source. Camera (here the Monochrom) shutter-speed was set to Auto (Shock! Horror!) and aperture was set to f11;

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...and the result obtained from the image seen centre of the film-strip / LHS camera rear screen;

As it happens this snap of 'No. 26 Wentworth Street London E1' (and the whole roll) was shot on Tri-X back in 1985 on my M2 with the 35mm f3.5 Summaron / Yellow Filter...

Keeping notes can be useful. Who Knew?!

Philip.

* I LOVE shooting tethered; all my pro work is shot using Canon DSLRs tethered - I find tethering essential for 'paying' stuff - but that's a very different kettle of fish from 'scanning' negs where all one needs to get right is focus and exposure.

Edited May 28, 2022 by pippy

[madNbad]

The 65 Elmar is a great lens and combined with the OTZFO is good enough for most close up work. If you’re looking for a way to securely hold a strip of negatives without spending a fortune, look at the Lomo digitaLIZA. It works well and can be used with a variety of light sources. It does work a lot better on a flat surface.

[Studienkamera]

I can clearly see then advantage of tethering for scanning purposes. Importantly, it would allow me to immediately judge on a big screen whether there was any dust on the negative. I often overlook some small dust particles on the screen of my CL when I scan 35mm negatives, which is quite annoying. 

[hirohhhh]

SL2 + Sigma 70mm Marco Lens (187mpx Multishot Mode)
Negative Supply Stand, light box and 120/35mm film carrier
Tethering Cable > Lightroom Classic
NegativeLab Pro for conversion

This is the output I'm getting from 35mm film (100% crop).

Edit: the original photo has much sharper grain (without sharpening in post), but this forum compressed it A LOT.

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I tried once lab scanning, and they are so inferior in terms of quality, resolution, no borders, already manipulated and inverted tiff files, that for me, spending some extra time scanning is worth, having high res, raw negatives that I can come back months or years later, unconvert and do it again differently if I want to. And now when I did this so many times, it takes less than 5 minutes to scan one 120 roll, and maybe 15min for 35mm roll. Another 10-15min for conversion and adjustments. But I love doing it. I usually do it once I accumulate 10-15 rolls, and I can do it all in few hours.

Edited May 28, 2022 by hirohhhh

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[jakontil]

I use my existing M10r with macro adapter and a 50mm apo

happen to have this at my disposal and was a great scanning tools, then i get a cheap extension tube 11mm if not mistaken, voila now i can get full 1:1 ?   
 

personally i was flirting with the ability to tether, but the lust fades slowly