50 mm Summicron V5: Alternatives to better keep contrast when light is coming from outside the frame?

[RexGig0]

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I use some Zeiss ZM lenses, in focal lengths other than 50mm, and have noticed their resistance to the types of flare that one can experience, from light sources outside the field of view. This may be due, at least in part, to Zeiss’ “T* Anti-Reflective Coating.” So, if an opportunity to borrow/rent a Zeiss f/2 50mm Planar ZM presents itself, it may be worth trying. (The Zeiss C Sonnar f/1.5 50mm ZM lens uses an older optical formula, with much different character, whereas the Planar should behave much like a Leica Summicron.) I have not used any Zeiss 50mm lenses, SLR or M-mount, so cannot testify, regarding 50mm, based up personal experience.

I am fiercely “loyal” to my Leica M lenses, including a Summicron with the IV/V 1979 optical formula, which have individual character that I like, but do not hesitate to acquire Zeiss and Cosina Voigtlander lenses, if they have optical characteristics that I want to use. I started doing this with SLR lenses.

Edited May 26, 2022 by RexGig0

[Peter K]

16 hours ago, adan said:

1) Which camera are you using?

2) Keep in mind that all lenses project round images. Since the image area is a rectangle, that means there is a lot of "spare light" bouncing around inside the camera. Which can produce the veiling flare (the camera inside is painted black - but not perfectly black)

3) Realistically, to eliminate all of that "useless light" requires not just a long hood, but a hood that crops the whole scene itself to the shape of the sensor/film - a rectangle.

4) Some Leica hoods do this, but none recently for the 50mms - this is for the 35mm Summicron ASPH v.1

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5) and since they are clip-on hoods, they will not fit the front of the v.5 50mm with its built-in hood.

6) Hollywood, with $$$millions riding on control of flare, and lights all over the sets, uses rectangular bellows/compendium matte boxes to crop the lens's view to just the scene to be filmed. Along with additional "gobos" or metal shields to block even more "excess light."

They are, of course, grossly oversized, for use across many focal lengths in large zoom cine lenses. But in theory with adapters to fit the internal 39mm thread of your 50mm, could be adapted.

https://vintagefilmcamerashop.com/Compendium-Bolex-H16-lens-hood-shade-bellows-Matte-Box-COZOM

Even the small ones made for DSLR videos are rather large:

https://www.amazon.com/Tilta-MB-T15-Tiltaing-Mini-Matte/dp/B082NKNKKD

7) A more practical idea might be to mask off the front of your lens's built-in hood to an appropriate-sized rectangle, with black tape or stiffer cardboard (or these days, maybe something 3D-printed in black plastic) - so that it does not vignette the corners, but crops the scene to only and exactly what the sensor/film can see. A "Leica-sized" matte box.

Something like this, where yellow indicates the area masked off. Sliding the hood in and out would allow adjusting (zooming) the crop to exactly the image area.

I tried this with the even-more-flare-prone 90mm Tele-Elmarit-M, by masking off its very long clip-on hood (12575) with black tape.

It did reduce flare, but was also a bit large for carry-around use (with or without the mask) - almost as long as the lens itself. The 50 Summicron's shorter and telescoping hood would be a more - elegant - starting place.

Thanks a lot for the elaborate information! I learned a lot reading this.

I didn't know about the risk of 'spare light' because of the difference in form between round lenses and rectangular images. But it makes sense.

Thanks!

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[hmzimelka]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:27 PM, Summilux-asph said:

PS: If you want cheap and small and awesome then the Voigtlander 50f1.5 Nokton II MC.

But again, if you want the best 50f2 around, the Voigtlander 50F2 APO-Lanthar is the only game in town (unless you’re willing to spend $9,000 on the Leica version).

If you like to shoot people, DON’T buy this lens. It’s super sharp and lots of contrast; but very harsh on skin and colors. It’s more of an environment lens and not so much a people lens. I would use the Nokton 50f1.5 II instead (also no focus shift like the Sonnar). 

Besides being f/1.5, I don't see how the  Nokton 50/1.5 ASPH II is or can be any less harsh for portraits. I have both the Nokton 50/1.5 ASPH II and the Planar 50/2 ZM and in my opinion if the Planar is too harsh for portraits then so would the Nokton. Both are very contrasty and sharp on the M11, more so than I would consider flattering for portraits. 

Other than that. I find the the Planar a fantastic lens. Subjectively, I find the 1/3 stop aperture increments very annoying. If I had bought the Planar first, I would not have bought the Nokton. I would choose either Nokton or Planar over a Summilux, at least based on the two copies of the Summilux I tried...

And the Nokton has focus shift. Not a lot, but it's there.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by hmzimelka

[Peter K]

2 hours ago, RexGig0 said:

I use some Zeiss ZM lenses, in focal lengths other than 50mm, and have noticed their resistance to the types of flare that one can experience, from light sources outside the field of view. This may be due, at least in part, to Zeiss’ “T* Anti-Reflective Coating.” So, if an opportunity to borrow/rent a Zeiss f/2 50mm Planar ZM presents itself, it may be worth trying. (The Zeiss C Sonnar f/1.5 50mm ZM lens uses an older optical formula, with much different character, whereas the Planar should behave much like a Leica Summicron.) I have not used any Zeiss 50mm lenses, SLR or M-mount, so cannot testify, regarding 50mm, based up personal experience.

I am fiercely “loyal” to my Leica M lenses, including a Summicron with the IV/V 1979 optical formula, which have individual character that I like, but do not hesitate to acquire Zeiss and Cosina Voigtlander lenses, if they have optical characteristics that I want to use. I started doing this with SLR lenses.

The Zeiss f/2 50mm Planar ZM sounds like a possible alternative. I'll keep that in mind.

Thanks.

[adan]

11 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

My own experience of the V5 summicron is that it's reputation for flare has more to do with forum dogma than it deserves.  Despite all I have read on this forum about the v5 and flare, I bought a new safari edition last year.  I like the lens and I have yet to find flare to be a problem.

I suppose that depends on just how challenging a lighting and action situation one will encounter in pursuit of content. And how one defines flare.

Both the pictures below were made with the current v.5 Summicron. The first most directly addresses the "outside the frame" lighting the OP describes.

The second relates to what Erwin Puts usually meant by "flare tendencies" - light internal to the picture spreading out and/or wrapping around edges. What might on film be dismissed as halation. But since these were with an M10, one would have to look to something in the lens that "spreads the light" around.

And then of course there is wide, softer veiling flare, and the classic "strings of colored blobs and aperture-polygons across the frame" flare.

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[adan]

With regard to flare from outside the image area, I have noticed that lenses with somewhat higher charted vignetting do reduce such flare.

If the light is already being attentuated in the image corners, that will mean the "spill light" beyond the frame is also less extensive and bright. The image circle is smaller and dims rapidly.

I can't speak to 50mms, but with 90s, I've seen less external veiling flare from - the Summarit f/2.5 and the 90 APO-Summicron.

[hmzimelka]

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27 minutes ago, adan said:

I suppose that depends on just how challenging a lighting and action situation one will encounter in pursuit of content. And how one defines flare.

Both the pictures below were made with the current v.5 Summicron. The first most directly addresses the "outside the frame" lighting the OP describes.

The second relates to what Erwin Puts usually meant by "flare tendencies" - light internal to the picture spreading out and/or wrapping around edges. What might on film be dismissed as halation. But since these were with an M10, one would have to look to something in the lens that "spreads the light" around.

And then of course there is wide, softer veiling flare, and the classic "strings of colored blobs and aperture-polygons across the frame" flare.

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You raise a good point that I forgot to mention the issue that Voigtlander and Ziess lenses can show with regard to flare from outside sources... That darned shiny chrome front bayonet ring and filter thread can cause some strong flares. Filters or step up rings are recommended to at least cover most of the threads with something black.

So thats another con to consider against Voigtlander and Zeiss

 

 

 

 

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

You raise a good point that I forgot to mention the issue that Voigtlander and Ziess lenses can show with regard to flare from outside sources... That darned shiny chrome front bayonet ring and filter thread can cause some strong flares. Filters or step up rings are recommended to at least cover most of the threads with something black.

So thats another con to consider against Voigtlander and Zeiss

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I use the rather small CV hoods and a protective filter on my CV lenses, so for me it's a non-issue. Some of the CV lenses like my 75 1.5 don't have the silver ring. I do wish that CV would do away with the silver rings, though.

//

On my 50 Cron v5, I never noticed veiling flare in most situations. And when there was flare, I just leaned into it because the flare pattern makes those cool retro red/orange cross/bird/oval shapes:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMsjsKZlPRE

[Jon Warwick]

On 5/24/2022 at 9:58 PM, jaapv said:

Be aware that lens haze can be next to invisible. If the lens has oil stains on the aperture blades it is very likely that there is an oil vapour residu on the lens surfaces. Combined with your description of its flare behaviour, I am 100% convinced that it simply needs a CLA - window washing by a competent technician, nothing more. I've seen spectacular results in similar cases.

It’s a very interesting point. I didn’t notice anything physically obvious with my v5 before I sold it (in frustration), but as I already mentioned above, after a decade or so of no probs at all with veiling flare, it bizarrely started to create (very regularly) a milky soft patch bang in the middle of the image, even in really really subdued light. So when people say flare isn’t an issue with the v5, and others say it’s a problem - well, I’ve experience both as the lens aged (no probs at all for a decade, then frequent veiling flare), so your hypothesis of lens haze could well be onto something, at least in my instance!

[Capuccino-Muffin]

My V4 and V5 are developing haze on one element. Quite weird but there it is. The flashlight test shows a lot of haze in the development stage and this plays a definitive role in flare and contrast.

 

i’m guessing it’s the glue or grease used in the lens’ construction.

[Alberti]

I have taken out the glass of an old [green] M39 filter and screwed that on my 50mm V5 Summicron lens. That works sufficient. I also have this ‘trick’ on my Summicron 35mm v4. On the Summilux 43 I use a 43mm-40.5mm adapter. And again on my Jupiter-3 with 40.5 mmm I do the same again & use a Fuji? ‘step-down shade’. I like tinkering a bit. The lens  keeps small this way.

I had mine CLA’d by Leica btw. I also had a loose aperture ring. So withe the repair they bundle in the CLA . . .

I like my 50mm v5 a lot on my M10-R, it is a keeper, I suggest.

• The boring part of the 50Cron v5 lens is the retractable hood - a misnomer, because the name should convey it is easily pushed back with the slighted pressure. Mine is always tilted. 🤐

Edited May 28, 2022 by Alberti

[jaapv]

On 5/25/2022 at 8:21 PM, Peter K said:

Thanks to you all for many good advices. I have read them all with great interest and have learned several things.

First, it sounds like the V5 (and V4) in general are more prone to this kind of flare that I personally don't like. I had a feeling that might be the case. And reading about your similar experiences with this particular version strengthened my 'suspicion'.

Second, I have decided to take my copy of the lens to the nearest Leica Store and have them evaluate its mechanical state. As jaapv said, it might need a CLA. It's definately worth a try because I really like almost everything else about this lens except for this phenomena.

Some kind of a bigger hood might be the next logical step if the above doesn't help.

And if the problem persists, I will strongly consider the Summilux (Asph or pre-Asph) instead. The other brands mentioned above sound great too. But at the moment I just have to accept that I'm into Leica (to the extent my economy allows...). I will keep my eyes open on the market for secondhand lenses, too...

Thanks again to you all. Much appreciated!

I don’t think that a Leica store is the most practical place. The salesman is not a technician and they’ll send  it in only to return after a long wait with a hefty bill. A good third party repair shop wil do it faster, cheaper and most likely better. 

[John Robinson]

I have the Summilux-M 50 ASPH and can confirm it is an excellent all-round lens.  One type of image at f/1.4 and a different look at f/4.  The sliding hood is next to useless so I added a screw-in hood (46mm copy of the Leica vented design).  Flare rarely a problem.  For times when low-light is not an issue, the Elmar-M 2.8/50 is a good complement to the 1.4, also highly-flare-resistant and it should come with an excellent bespoke hood (don't buy it second-hand if it is missing its hood).

Having said this, different lenses, especially those designed for film, give different results on different sensors.  In my experience, the M 50 ASPH is superb on film and on the M9 but disappointing on the SL (601).  The Summilux-R 50 gives me better results on the SL.  Others could comment on the Lux-M performance on the M240.  The Summicron-C 2/40 is an under-rated lens but the lack of 40mm frame lines on an M can be irritating.  The Elmar-M 2.8/50 is a remarkably good lens even at f/2.8.

I have some older Summicrons (M and R) and can confirm that internal haze is a significant cause of flare.  I had a Summicron-R CLA'd by a third-party lens expert and the improvement in results was startling.  The same would apply to a Summicron-C if you find one.  In all cases, a good lens hood is essential (clip-on or screw-in).

I tried some Voigtlander Noktons in the 2000s but decided I preferred Leica.  Recent models, especially APO-Lanthar, may be a different story.  The 3.5/90 APO-Lanthar in LTM was a stunning lens for its time.  I don't know about recent Zeiss ZM lenses but for shooting mirrorless, the Zeiss Planar 1.4/50 (and its cousin the 1.4/85) can produce some excellent results with minimal flare.

So many 50s to choose from!  It is a case of finding one or two you really like (perhaps after trying quite a few) and settling on them.  At least with Leica, the resale values only ever seem to go up.

[Peter K]

11 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

It’s a very interesting point. I didn’t notice anything physically obvious with my v5 before I sold it (in frustration), but as I already mentioned above, after a decade or so of no probs at all with veiling flare, it bizarrely started to create (very regularly) a milky soft patch bang in the middle of the image, even in really really subdued light. So when people say flare isn’t an issue with the v5, and others say it’s a problem - well, I’ve experience both as the lens aged (no probs at all for a decade, then frequent veiling flare), so your hypothesis of lens haze could well be onto something, at least in my instance!

That's interesting to hear. It might explain some of the differing views in here about the tendency for the v5 to have problems with veiling flare.

[Peter K]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

I don’t think that a Leica store is the most practical place. The salesman is not a technician and they’ll send  it in only to return after a long wait with a hefty bill. A good third party repair shop wil do it faster, cheaper and most likely better. 

Yeah, I know. My problem is that I live in an area without any third party repair shops nearby. And I'm a little nervous about having to pack and send such an expensive item myself.

I think I will be more confident, that they are able to pack it securely from the official Leica Store here in Denmark..

But I may be wrong. And you are definately right. That will of course come with an extra price to pay...

[6bit]

Have you tried any Voigtlander lateness? The Nokton 50/1.5ii is an awesome little lens. The best $700 you will ever spend. 

[Peter K]

59 minutes ago, John Robinson said:

I have the Summilux-M 50 ASPH and can confirm it is an excellent all-round lens.  One type of image at f/1.4 and a different look at f/4.  The sliding hood is next to useless so I added a screw-in hood (46mm copy of the Leica vented design).  Flare rarely a problem.  For times when low-light is not an issue, the Elmar-M 2.8/50 is a good complement to the 1.4, also highly-flare-resistant and it should come with an excellent bespoke hood (don't buy it second-hand if it is missing its hood).

Having said this, different lenses, especially those designed for film, give different results on different sensors.  In my experience, the M 50 ASPH is superb on film and on the M9 but disappointing on the SL (601).  The Summilux-R 50 gives me better results on the SL.  Others could comment on the Lux-M performance on the M240.  The Summicron-C 2/40 is an under-rated lens but the lack of 40mm frame lines on an M can be irritating.  The Elmar-M 2.8/50 is a remarkably good lens even at f/2.8.

I have some older Summicrons (M and R) and can confirm that internal haze is a significant cause of flare.  I had a Summicron-R CLA'd by a third-party lens expert and the improvement in results was startling.  The same would apply to a Summicron-C if you find one.  In all cases, a good lens hood is essential (clip-on or screw-in).

I tried some Voigtlander Noktons in the 2000s but decided I preferred Leica.  Recent models, especially APO-Lanthar, may be a different story.  The 3.5/90 APO-Lanthar in LTM was a stunning lens for its time.  I don't know about recent Zeiss ZM lenses but for shooting mirrorless, the Zeiss Planar 1.4/50 (and its cousin the 1.4/85) can produce some excellent results with minimal flare.

So many 50s to choose from!  It is a case of finding one or two you really like (perhaps after trying quite a few) and settling on them.  At least with Leica, the resale values only ever seem to go up.

Thanks for this very interesting insight on the different models and versions. I will keep that in mind.

Yes, you're right. There are so many alternatives to choose from. And the resale value seems quite stable.

I'm still a bit of a newbie on the secondhand market and afraid to buy lenses with faults that I am not able to spot. But I guess I will just have to do my homework properly and learn what to look out for.

Thanks again.

[Lelmer]

1 hour ago, John Robinson said:

I have the Summilux-M 50 ASPH and can confirm it is an excellent all-round lens.  One type of image at f/1.4 and a different look at f/4.  The sliding hood is next to useless so I added a screw-in hood (46mm copy of the Leica vented design).  Flare rarely a problem.  For times when low-light is not an issue, the Elmar-M 2.8/50 is a good complement to the 1.4, also highly-flare-resistant and it should come with an excellent bespoke hood (don't buy it second-hand if it is missing its hood).

.....

Using both on a M240, I fully agree, except for the sliding hood that I like and find very convenient

[Capuccino-Muffin]

1 hour ago, Lelmer said:

Using both on a M240, I fully agree, except for the sliding hood that I like and find very convenient

Convenient for what? Is it even a hood?

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[Rob L]

My gross generalization is this: CV and Zeiss lenses rarely exhibit much veiling flare even without a hood. Leica M lenses in general flair a bit. All Summicron 50s and the 75 APO Summicron are particularly prone in the situation described. Also I believe the Summit 50/ 2.4 is much better than the Summicron about this, and the hood is awesome!