50 mm Summicron V5: Alternatives to better keep contrast when light is coming from outside the frame?

[Peter K]

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Hi,

A couple of years ago, I bought a 50 mm Summicron V5 (seconhand) to use with my M240. I acknowledge that this is a classic and a highly revered lens and I do like it in many ways.

But, I am struggling a lot with low contrast and kind of 'milky' / flat images in many situations when the light is coming from different angles outside the frame. As far as I understand, this is a normal behavior with this specific lens. And I truly admire those, who are able to work their way around it and use it creatively.

However, many times I don't have the opportunity to recompose / avoid these specific lightning situations. And personally, I don't like this effect on the images.

My question is: Can you recommend another Leica 50 mm lens that would keep the contrast better in these situations? Maybe another version of the Summicron or maybe the Summilux ASPH? Or do they all behave the same way with regards to flare/low contrast in these specific situations?

If this has already been discussed elsewhere, I apologize in advance.

Thanks.

[pedaes]

Is your V5 the one with the built in hood? If so, you could try a screw-in hood that gives greater protection (assuming you are using a lens hood).. Also do you use filters and if so are they multi-coated?

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[Kl@usW.]

If you can live with the loss of half a stop and less fame: Summarit 2,4 or 2,5/ 50.  I have personal experience and own a Summilux Asph last version and the Summarit 2,4/50 and owned a Cron pre asph and an Elmar-M 2,8/50. Of these the Summarit is clearly the winner. I nearly forgot: an  unlikely competitor is the Noctilux 0,95/50.   An excellent all-round lens as soon it is stopped down to say 1,4 or 2.0.  I sold because it is a misfit on an M-Body, but is probably an excellent choice on an SL or SL 2.   So in my experience : Summarit 2,4 or the Noctilux 0,95....

Did you check your Cron V5 for haze ? 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Kl@usW.

[Peter K]

7 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Is your V5 the one with the built in hood? If so, you could try a screw-in hood that gives greater protection (assuming you are using a lens hood).. Also do you use filters and if so are they multi-coated?

Thanks for your answer!

It is the one with a retractable hood and I use it all the time. I guess I will not be able to use a screw-in hood on this model?

I use a Leica UVa II filter (multi-coated). I know that an extra layer of glass always degrades the image to some degree. But I have tried taking pictures without the filter and it didn't have any effect.

Thanks again.

[Peter K]

38 minutes ago, Kl@usW. said:

If you can live with the loss of half a stop and less fame: Summarit 2,4 or 2,5/ 50.  I have personal experience and own a Summilux Asph last version and the Summarit 2,4/50 and owned a Cron pre asph and an Elmar-M 2,8/50. Of these the Summarit is clearly the winner. I nearly forgot: an  unlikely competitor is the Noctilux 0,95/50.   An excellent all-round lens as soon it is stopped down to say 1,4 or 2.0.  I sold because it is a misfit on an M-Body, but is probably an excellent choice on an SL or SL 2.   So in my experience : Summarit 2,4 or the Noctilux 0,95....

Did you check your Cron V5 for haze ? 

Thanks for your answer. Yes, I have heard many good things about the Summarit. But it would be problematic for me with a slower lens as I often work indoors / in low light situations.

I don't think there is a problem with haze (although I'm not an expert). However, there are some dark marks on some of the aperture blades. But I don't think that should have any effect on this specific matter.

Would you say that the Summilux Asph behaves 'better' compared to the Cron pre asph when it comes to not loosing contrast in the situations I mentioned above?

Thanks again.

[lct]

I cannot advise the Summarit 50, at least he 50/2.5, that can do nasty flare in special conditions, typically when the sun shines at 10:00 AM. Otherwise both Summicron 50/2 v4 and v5 tend to flare when strong light sources are outside the frame. Using a taller hood is of little help but you may wish to do some more shade with your hand or a hat. Been there done that but it is easier to achieve in LV than RF mode. Among faster lenses you will get better results with both pre-asph and asph Summilux 50/1.4 which could be the better solution for you. The Summicron 50/2 apo can be recommended too but it is not superior to Summiluxes as far as resistance to flare and it is a very expensive lens. Besides Leica, the Sonnar 50/1.5 is one the least prone to flare but it suffers from focus shift in RF mode. It is less of a problem in LV mode though. Among slower lenses, the Elmar-M 50/2.8 is also very good. As for filters you can only get more flare with them, never less, but you know this already i guess.

[TomB_tx]

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Agree I've seen similar veiling flare from the Summarit 50 and Summicron 50, which makes sense as the optical design is similar, although the Summarit has better blackening of the rear parts.

The ZM Planar 50 seems more resistant, and has appealing IQ - if you like higher contrast.

Edited May 24, 2022 by TomB_tx

[evikne]

If you use Lightroom, the Dehaze tool is pretty effective in repairing such veiling flare. I have two older lenses that are quite prone to this. I use a brush or gradient mask to add the Dehaze effect on the exposed areas. I love my lenses the way they are and would not replace them with more modern glass just to avoid the flare. 

[jaapv]

Be aware that lens haze can be next to invisible. If the lens has oil stains on the aperture blades it is very likely that there is an oil vapour residu on the lens surfaces. Combined with your description of its flare behaviour, I am 100% convinced that it simply needs a CLA - window washing by a competent technician, nothing more. I've seen spectacular results in similar cases.

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, Peter K said:

I guess I will not be able to use a screw-in hood on this model?

A screw in hood will either screw into filter thread, or thread in front of filter. I would try one of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/381986684965?hash=item58f02e4025:g:78UAAOxyMKNSKZU7

Available in silver if you have a silver lens. TvO's hoods are slightly bigger in size, but massively more expensive https://www.overgaard.dk/Thorsten-von-Overgaard-Gallery-Store-Hardware-for-Photography-and-Leica-Lenses-and-Cameras.html

[Jon Warwick]

I got veiling flare with the v5 ….producing a milky and low contrast patch, bang in the middle of the image (including in flat light). I think it got progressively worse over the years, ie, never noticed an issue at all for the first decade from new, then it seemed to be a problem consistently. One observation was the black paint(?) on the rear “inner part” of my lens near the back element had started to deteriorate, such that a wipe with a cloth would cause black flecks to come off. Maybe that didn’t help the veiling flare in my case. I never investigated getting it fixed; sold it instead. The v5 has lovely rendering, mind you, less “digital” to my eyes than the very high contrast and high acuity of more modern lenses IMHO. 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Jon Warwick

[Peter K]

Thanks to you all for many good advices. I have read them all with great interest and have learned several things.

First, it sounds like the V5 (and V4) in general are more prone to this kind of flare that I personally don't like. I had a feeling that might be the case. And reading about your similar experiences with this particular version strengthened my 'suspicion'.

Second, I have decided to take my copy of the lens to the nearest Leica Store and have them evaluate its mechanical state. As jaapv said, it might need a CLA. It's definately worth a try because I really like almost everything else about this lens except for this phenomena.

Some kind of a bigger hood might be the next logical step if the above doesn't help.

And if the problem persists, I will strongly consider the Summilux (Asph or pre-Asph) instead. The other brands mentioned above sound great too. But at the moment I just have to accept that I'm into Leica (to the extent my economy allows...). I will keep my eyes open on the market for secondhand lenses, too...

Thanks again to you all. Much appreciated!

[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, Summilux-asph said:

This is why I choose the Voigtlander APO. It’s flare free and just as awesome. No hood needed. 
 

It’s the same size as the 50f1.4, and it’s the best 50f2 (aside from the Leica APO, but that’s so expensive it’s ridiculous). If you like f2, I would pick the Voigtlander. But if you like f1.4, then a Summilux of course. 

Seems you chose the wrong forum name.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, Summilux-asph said:

There are countless threads about non Leica brand lenses in the Leica M Lenses forum (especially Voigtlander threads. Some Voigtlander lenses are more Leica than Leica lenses… Like the 28f2 Ultron II. The Summicron should be as small and good at every aperture like the Ultron II for what they’re charging. 

Also, others here suggested non Leica lenses (I’m not the only one). 

The OP asked about alternatives to the 50f2 Summicron. The alternative for a Leica branded lens is the $9,000 APO version, which is outrageous. 

The only other logical alternative that will 100% not only solve his problem but give him the look he is after is the VL APO-Lanthar 50f2. As far as what he is looking for, this is the lens that will solve his problems. 

A Summilux is not necessarily an alternative to the 50f2, that’s another lens entirely. But it is resistant to flare and if it’s the ASPH so, it is a sharp lens.
 

I guess an “upgrade” to a Summilux is the other option of having that Leica brand on the lens is important. 

It was merely a joke about your name, given the post.

Jeff

[Huss]

I have the V5 Summicron, and the Summilux Asph.  But if I want to minimize flare I use my ZM 50 f2 Planar.

[adan]

6 hours ago, Peter K said:

Thanks to you all for many good advices. I have read them all with great interest and have learned several things.

First, it sounds like the V5 (and V4) in general are more prone to this kind of flare that I personally don't like. I had a feeling that might be the case. And reading about your similar experiences with this particular version strengthened my 'suspicion'.

Second, I have decided to take my copy of the lens to the nearest Leica Store and have them evaluate its mechanical state. As jaapv said, it might need a CLA. It's definately worth a try because I really like almost everything else about this lens except for this phenomena.

Some kind of a bigger hood might be the next logical step if the above doesn't help.

And if the problem persists, I will strongly consider the Summilux (Asph or pre-Asph) instead. The other brands mentioned above sound great too. But at the moment I just have to accept that I'm into Leica (to the extent my economy allows...). I will keep my eyes open on the market for secondhand lenses, too...

Thanks again to you all. Much appreciated!

1) Which camera are you using?

2) Keep in mind that all lenses project round images. Since the image area is a rectangle, that means there is a lot of "spare light" bouncing around inside the camera. Which can produce the veiling flare (the camera inside is painted black - but not perfectly black)

3) Realistically, to eliminate all of that "useless light" requires not just a long hood, but a hood that crops the whole scene itself to the shape of the sensor/film - a rectangle.

4) Some Leica hoods do this, but none recently for the 50mms - this is for the 35mm Summicron ASPH v.1

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5) and since they are clip-on hoods, they will not fit the front of the v.5 50mm with its built-in hood.

6) Hollywood, with $$$millions riding on control of flare, and lights all over the sets, uses rectangular bellows/compendium matte boxes to crop the lens's view to just the scene to be filmed. Along with additional "gobos" or metal shields to block even more "excess light."

They are, of course, grossly oversized, for use across many focal lengths in large zoom cine lenses. But in theory with adapters to fit the internal 39mm thread of your 50mm, could be adapted.

https://vintagefilmcamerashop.com/Compendium-Bolex-H16-lens-hood-shade-bellows-Matte-Box-COZOM

Even the small ones made for DSLR videos are rather large:

https://www.amazon.com/Tilta-MB-T15-Tiltaing-Mini-Matte/dp/B082NKNKKD

7) A more practical idea might be to mask off the front of your lens's built-in hood to an appropriate-sized rectangle, with black tape or stiffer cardboard (or these days, maybe something 3D-printed in black plastic) - so that it does not vignette the corners, but crops the scene to only and exactly what the sensor/film can see. A "Leica-sized" matte box.

Something like this, where yellow indicates the area masked off. Sliding the hood in and out would allow adjusting (zooming) the crop to exactly the image area.

I tried this with the even-more-flare-prone 90mm Tele-Elmarit-M, by masking off its very long clip-on hood (12575) with black tape.

It did reduce flare, but was also a bit large for carry-around use (with or without the mask) - almost as long as the lens itself. The 50 Summicron's shorter and telescoping hood would be a more - elegant - starting place.

[lct]

Not sure if a 90mm lens can be an alternative to the Summicron 50/2 v5. 

[Ouroboros]

My own experience of the V5 summicron is that it's reputation for flare has more to do with forum dogma than it deserves.  Despite all I have read on this forum about the v5 and flare, I bought a new safari edition last year.  I like the lens and I have yet to find flare to be a problem. 

I'm sure I could get the lens to produce flare if I tried.  Putting aside issues with oil residue, haze, physical damage, filters etc,  I think the answer to avoiding flare is mainly a case of user awareness, as it is with any other lens. 

Summicrons and elmars are the classic Leica lenses and as good as some Voigtlander lenses might be and as unlikely as it would be to find any meaningful differences in prints between them, I still would not be without mine.

[lct]

I still use my Summicron v4 or v5 preferably when i need a compact 50/2. The tiny v4 is sitting on my new M11 currently. It has been coded and i feel as if this lens from 1988 were part of a 2022 kit with the body.

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[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, lct said:

Not sure if a 90mm lens can be an alternative to the Summicron 50/2 v5. 

For me, the 50 Summilux ASPH is a terrific all-around, single solution, lens…and my forum name isn’t even ‘Summilux-ASPH’

Jeff