OMG! The prices!

[madNbad]

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[a.noctilux]

5 minutes ago, madNbad said:

https://www.nemeng.com/leica/042b.shtml

Thanks, I see that is NOT all M4-2/M4-P, but

The M6 (and later M4-P), those with flush windows (Bill Rosauer concluded :  All the M4-P's with flush windows have zinc top plates...)

 

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[Danner]

FWIW, and IMHO, the M6 is the best M-film body, except for, perhaps, the MP where price may be a determining factor.

[Tomsmac]

16 minutes ago, Danner said:

FWIW, and IMHO, the M6 is the best M-film body, except for, perhaps, the MP where price may be a determining factor.

Why, in your opinion?

[madNbad]

44 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Thanks, I see that is NOT all M4-2/M4-P, but

The M6 (and later M4-P), those with flush windows (Bill Rosauer concluded :  All the M4-P's with flush windows have zinc top plates...)

 

Mea Clupa. From various readings I was led to believe the change to zinc coincided with the switch to steel gears and problems with machining brass with the new CNC equipment.

[Huss]

3 hours ago, Danner said:

FWIW, and IMHO, the M6 is the best M-film body, except for, perhaps, the MP where price may be a determining factor.

Last year I had the opportunity to pick up a like new M6 for $2400.  I passed because I already have too many Ms..

But it was a delight to play with in the shop, but I'm not sure how one could claim it to be the best film body, when the meter readout in the VF was improved with the later cameras.  And the RF patch was susceptible to flare.  That can be updated with an MP finder.

I could see the argument being made for the M6TTL, just because you have the angled rewind knob.  But the downside is it is more susceptible to damage given it is angled.

Anyway, if had a nice M6, and nothing else, I'd still be very happy.

[Anbaric]

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5 hours ago, Danner said:

FWIW, and IMHO, the M6 is the best M-film body, except for, perhaps, the MP where price may be a determining factor.

Apart from the price, I wonder if anyone out there has my ideal camera? With the old a la Carte programme you could start with an MP (so fully serviceable electronics, a brass top that will never bubble, and an RF condenser lens to reduce flare), but choose some no-nonsense custom features (modern film advance and canted rewind knob, hard-wearing black chrome, plain top with no script). Otherwise I guess I'll have to settle for my M6...

[Danner]

5 hours ago, madNbad said:

quote deleted, meant to quote tomsmac

 

3 hours ago, Huss said:

Last year I had the opportunity to pick up a like new M6 for $2400.  I passed because I already have too many Ms..

But it was a delight to play with in the shop, but I'm not sure how one could claim it to be the best film body, when the meter readout in the VF was improved with the later cameras.  And the RF patch was susceptible to flare.  That can be updated with an MP finder.

I could see the argument being made for the M6TTL, just because you have the angled rewind knob.  But the downside is it is more susceptible to damage given it is angled.

Anyway, if had a nice M6, and nothing else, I'd still be very happy.

The M6 is a relatively late model, reasonably priced (for an M) with a range of shooter conveniences, namely, the swivel tip film advance, angled rewind knob, built-in light meter, rapid film load, coupled ISO selector/rememberer, and all 6 viewfinder frame line sets.  I have two, and sent one in for the "MP finder upgrade".  IME, there isn't a significant improvement when comparing to the non-upgraded body.  The TTL is couple millimeters taller, which IMHO is necessary bulk, and has TTL flash metering, which I do not want.  The M7 has an electrically time shutter and a DX code reader, both of which IMHO are undesirable in an all-mechanical film camera.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Danner

[Studienkamera]

According to an ongoing discussion in another forum, Leica no longer has any main circuit board replacements left for the classic M6. This was recently announced by DAG Camera Repair. The classic M6 now shares this problem with the M6 TTL. That's another factor to take into account when considering an M6. I would look for an MP instead.

[adan]

6 minutes ago, Danner said:

The TTL is couple millimeters taller, which IMHO is necessary bulk

The TTL/M7s' extra height purportedly was due to adding an idler gear between the shutter dial and the shutter mechanism down below, to reverse the direction of the dial so that it matched the direction of the >•< metering arrows (move front of dial in same direction as the illuminated arrow, to reach centered exposure).

Like:  👉>•<👈

Personally, I always suspected it was also to get M users used to the idea and feel of a slightly bigger camera, in anticipation of a digital version.

I expect Leica was worried about cramming all the digital necessities into an M6-sized "container" - and indeed it took until 2017, and the M10, to complete the process (mostly).

[Danner]

43 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

According to an ongoing discussion in another forum, Leica no longer has any main circuit board replacements left for the classic M6. This was recently announced by DAG Camera Repair. The classic M6 now shares this problem with the M6 TTL. That's another factor to take into account when considering an M6. I would look for an MP instead.

The M6 is a much simpler circuit, here is an M6TTL opened up with an M6 meter board laying in front of it.

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[bags27]

This of course is the problem for MF film cameras. Every camera I've bought the past couple of years, I first ask myself: will I be able to get it serviced and how long (not to mention, how much!) will it take? 

[Matlock]

7 hours ago, Anbaric said:

 "a brass top that will never bubble" 

The bubble problem was confined to a very few early M6s and R4s. Although I have seen several pictures, mainly on this forum, I have never come across the problem myself and I know of no one who has. 

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, Matlock said:

The bubble problem was confined to a very few early M6s and R4s. Although I have seen several pictures, mainly on this forum, I have never come across the problem myself and I know of no one who has. 

I had a quick look at current sales listings last month when this came up in another thread, and here's what I found:

Of around 20 M6s on sale in the UK right now, a quick glance at the photos suggests at least 4 have some obvious evidence of zinc 'bubbles', though they are only extensive in one case. All are Classics, two are early (Wetzlar), three are black and one is silver chrome.

No problem with mine so far (black chrome, Solms version).

Edited May 17, 2022 by Anbaric

[Anbaric]

10 hours ago, Danner said:

The M6 is a much simpler circuit, here is an M6TTL opened up with an M6 meter board laying in front of it.

Less to go wrong? But they do still fail from time to time - Don Goldberg has a small collection of damaged Classic boards:

https://www.dagcamera.com/store/p166/Leica_M6-_Classic-_No_More_Main_Circuit_Boards.html

There had been claims that the MP board can be used instead, but DAG says no.

At least failure of the Classic board (I think) leaves the flash sync still working, which is reportedly not the case for the TTL.

[Matlock]

46 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Less to go wrong? But they do still fail from time to time - Don Goldberg has a small collection of damaged Classic boards:

https://www.dagcamera.com/store/p166/Leica_M6-_Classic-_No_More_Main_Circuit_Boards.html

There had been claims that the MP board can be used instead, but DAG says no.

At least failure of the Classic board (I think) leaves the flash sync still working, which is reportedly not the case for the TTL.

What you say makes sense, however the constant talk of circuit failure with the M6/M6TTL only fuels the unnecessary paranoia regarding these very reliable cameras. Yes any camera can fail but it is still a very rare occurrence (except, maybe, among members of this forum).

[Anbaric]

10 minutes ago, Matlock said:

What you say makes sense, however the constant talk of circuit failure with the M6/M6TTL only fuels the unnecessary paranoia regarding these very reliable cameras. Yes any camera can fail but it is still a very rare occurrence (except, maybe, among members of this forum).

I'm not worried at all worried about the M6 I already have, or even about my entirely battery dependent cameras like the AF Nikons. But if I were to buy another metered Leica, repairability might factor into the decision. A used MP goes for perhaps £3500. A nice M6 can cost as much as £2500 these days, no small investment, and from this year onward not all electronic problems can be fixed.

[wattsy]

48 minutes ago, Matlock said:

the constant talk of circuit failure with the M6/M6TTL only fuels the unnecessary paranoia regarding these very reliable cameras.

I think the paranoia is a Leica Forum thing. The current market price of the M6 suggests that most buyers aren't too worried.

[Ko.Fe.]

On 5/13/2022 at 11:01 PM, Capuccino-Muffin said:

I always wondered what makes people start looking for a M6? I’d understand a M2, M3, M4, M5, MP, M-A, M7... but never understood why M6.

To me it is stubborn mind and unwillingness to learn even simple things like S16. They just can't realize what handheld meter  is more accurate and eliminates major source of non repairable failure. Nor they are able to realize what film exposure latitude is wide.

It seems M6 demand comes from those who knows nothing about exposure. Which is in majority these days, since for decades non-Leica cameras are offering reliable TTL metering, not via some painted spot on the shutter cloth.  

Also M6 is kind of fashion camera among all film Ms. No idea why. On my first encounter with M6, I asked owner if it was Cosina Zeiss (Nikon FM10 chassis). It looked not as metal as M4-P or older.  

Edited May 17, 2022 by Ko.Fe.

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[Matlock]

1 hour ago, Ko.Fe. said:

To me it is stubborn mind and unwillingness to learn even simple things like S16. They just can't realize what handheld meter  is more accurate and eliminates major source of non repairable failure. Nor they are able to realize what film exposure latitude is wide.

It seems M6 demand comes from those who knows nothing about exposure. Which is in majority these days, since for decades non-Leica cameras are offering reliable TTL metering, not via some painted spot on the shutter cloth.  

Also M6 is kind of fashion camera among all film Ms. No idea why. On my first encounter with M6, I asked owner if it was Cosina Zeiss (Nikon FM10 chassis). It looked not as metal as M4-P or older.  

I am willing to bet that a fair number of potential M6 owners are fully aware of Sunny 16 and the use of hand held meters, but what do I know as I have only been taking photos since 1957? The M6 is probably the most popular film M due to the length time that it has been available and the numbers produced, the TTL metering is just a bonus. Read the majority of posts on this subject.