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In-camera M11 Monochrome JPEGs


hdmesa

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I'm not liking the M11 in-camera b&w JPEGs. Even in bright daylight, when I use a lens wide open that has heavy vignetting (28 Lux at f/1.4), the vignette gradient on the monochrome JPEGs is abruptly truncated with a hard division between the vignette and the rest of the image (and at high ISOs in dim light, this translates to heavily-banded corners on the JPEGs).

DNG converted to b&w with high contrast applied (top) versus the in-camera high-contrast b&w film style (bottom). I've never seen a real film that did this to the vignetting, and I don't remember the in-camera JPEGs looking like this on the M10-R or M10M. I'm not sure if the M11 issue is too much JPEG compression or just a badly designed tone curve.

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This thread will get 0 replies. The other thread that was opened about this issue with JPEGs and overall look: “M11 Sony sensor doesn’t have the Leica Look”- the one who opened it was banned. Tells you all you need to know about this forum. 

Edited by Leicaphile
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25 minutes ago, Leicaphile said:

This thread will get 0 replies. The other thread that was opened about this issue with JPEGs and overall look: “M11 Sony sensor doesn’t have the Leica Look”- the one who opened it was banned. Tells you all you need to know about this forum. 

The other person was banned because he broke forum rules, not because of the topic. This is what Andreas said:

You get banned for violating the rules, for example insulting other members and starting fights over and over again.

And if you start a new account after being banned, the new account gets banned too – like yours, @KeyofG.

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I’m just throwing this out there but I’ve seen some weirdness like this in LR that I think was due to the preview settings.  Going to the Develop module would resolve it but returning to the Library caused it to come back. Still see it from time to time but I’m not sure what’s causing glitch. Haven’t experienced the problem with C1.

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Worrying about image quality in out-of-camera jpegs is like worrying about how well a pig can sing. ;)

One is working with 8-bit data (256 gray levels) instead of the 14-bit data (16384 gray levels) in a .DNG, so naturally there can be more-abrupt tone gradients/cutoffs. It is built into the jpeg specifications - and baked into the images forever, the instant the camera creates them.

It may also be an artifact of the sRGB color space and gamma curve that is the only option for jpeg output with the M11. sRGB was engineered in 1996, before any significant digital photography was being done, to make images look pretty on the cathode-ray monitors of the day. It is known to be a bit "squirrelly" in the shadows.

Adobe RGB 1998 improved on sRGB (and is a jpeg-output option on most cameras), but I can't quantify that - the last time I actually shot a jpeg was early 2006 (end of my Digilux-2 era).

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+1 to all the guys who don’t shoot jpegs for all the reasons they don’t. 

However I do set my M11 to record DNG to the card and JPEG to the internal memory ‘just in case’ so I suppose that even though I have never looked at a single one of them, I might accidentally have a dog in the fight one day.

In which case I’ll defo always be setting it to record a color file not a B&W because when I shoot for B&W I prefer not to use filters on the lens and so I want the color information there for when I make my final choices in post. A JPEG would only be an emergency place to start that, and the inclusion of sRGB only is really lame, but mitigation would imply capturing a reasonably middle of the road colour JPEG, no?

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7 minutes ago, tashley said:

However I do set my M11 to record DNG to the card and JPEG to the internal memory ‘just in case’ so I suppose that even though I have never looked at a single one of them, I might accidentally have a dog in the fight one day.

Sure. And I get that shooting .DNG+jpeg to "see the B&W image" is useful/inspirational/fun for many.

(Not me - 50 years of shooting through full-color viewfinders of all types, for both B&W and color, has developed my ability to "pre-visualize" as needed. I only check the LCD for possible focus or gross exposure errors).

It is certainly possible that Leica can add an Adobe-1998 option for jpegs, or otherwise tweak the firmware code for the image processing. Adobe-1998 would make them a bit less web/FB/IG/Twitter-friendly straight out of the camera, since the Web still broadly assumes sRGB color mapping, and Leica probably assumes that is the only "target audience" for shooting jpegs at all.

I would guess that a vanishingly-small number of Leica folks and beta-testers actually bothered to check M11 jpegs in detail, except maybe to test the crop-modes.

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Just checked with a high vignetting lens (S-A 21/3.4) and there is a bug in the M11's jpeg engine apparently (raw above, jpg below). 

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15 minutes ago, lct said:

Just checked with a high vignetting lens (S-A 21/3.4) and there is a bug in the M11's jpeg engine apparently (raw above, jpg below). 

 

 

YES! And also if you're shooting in dim light at high ISO, those transitions will be banded like crazy.

DNG exported to JPEG from C1:

 

SOOC JPEG – looks like a fake shot of looking through binoculars!

 

Edited by hdmesa
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Another example. DNG left / JPEG right. The DNG was heavily processed with high contrast C1 profile, added contrast, reduction of blue & cyan sliders and still has a nice gradient in the sky.

It looks like Leica used an errant tone curve in one or more color channels during the b&w conversion.

 

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Edited by hdmesa
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I take it back – the M11 color JPEGs have the same issue.

SOOC JPEG top, DNG bottom:

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Edited by hdmesa
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9 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I take it back – the M11 color JPEGs have the same issue.

SOOC JPEG top, DNG bottom:

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interesting...

what are your in-camera jpg settings for contrast etc etc

OR

the lens corrections are not being applied in-camera to the jpegs

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I feel like certain lenses vignettes more than others on the M11. In terms of the monochrome jpeg I got a surprise one today that I really liked!

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3 hours ago, frame-it said:

interesting...

what are your in-camera jpg settings for contrast etc etc

OR

the lens corrections are not being applied in-camera to the jpegs

No alterations to the in-camera film styles. Regarding lens corrections: Leica's vignetting corrections are pretty mild for most of their lenses, even those with heavy vignetting.

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2 hours ago, Ktsa5239 said:

I feel like certain lenses vignettes more than others on the M11. In terms of the monochrome jpeg I got a surprise one today that I really liked!

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Looks good.

Images without a continuous tone subject in the corners won't show the issue. Images that are shot with the lens stopped down to reduce vignetting don't show the issue, either.

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