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In-camera M11 Monochrome JPEGs


hdmesa
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2 hours ago, SrMi said:

What was Leica's response?

I'm still thinking about how to write this up in a manner in which makes sense and won't be dismissed out of hand. Maybe I just point them to this thread.

It usually takes them 4-5 days to respond to the inquires I send to their "info" address, not sure about the tech one (thanks for putting that in a recent post).

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1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

I'm still thinking about how to write this up in a manner in which makes sense and won't be dismissed out of hand. Maybe I just point them to this thread.

It usually takes them 4-5 days to respond to the inquires I send to their "info" address, not sure about the tech one (thanks for putting that in a recent post).

Yes, it helps to write it up in a clear and simple way. It takes time to do that, appreciate you taking it. Maybe point them to this thread once initial description of the problem has been accepted.

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47 minutes ago, tashley said:

After this thread, and the one where the troll guy got banned, I got to thinking about my assertion that I never shoot in-camera JPEg other than as a backup and that I therefore have no idea, or interest in what the in-camera B&W looks like - though I do accept that it matters for some and that it therefore should be given some attention by Leica.

So I thought I'd set the camera to shoot DNG+JPEG and set the film style to B&W Nat/=.

I then set myself the challenge of not looking at the JPEGS until I had finished processing the DNGs to B&W to my taste. I then applied the crop from the DNG to the JPEG and exported them both per forum rules in order to see what they looked like side by side.

I make no comments as to whether this is a useful exercise or whether the results demonstrate anything but here it is: DNG first in each case.

DNG almost always looks better provided you can edit thoughtfully in post.

But you won't see the issue I've described unless you shoot with a wide-aperture M lens that has significant vignetting and you shoot it wide open and there is a good chunk of the corners with a continuous gradient tone background: 28 Lux shot at f/1.4 against a blue sky for example. This looks like you shot it with the lens stopped down a bit then added vignette in post. But maybe you were making a different point just about JPEG usefulness vs DNG.

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2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

DNG almost always looks better provided you can edit thoughtfully in post.

But you won't see the issue I've described unless you shoot with a wide-aperture M lens that has significant vignetting and you shoot it wide open and there is a good chunk of the corners with a continuous gradient tone background: 28 Lux shot at f/1.4 against a blue sky for example. This looks like you shot it with the lens stopped down a bit then added vignette in post. But maybe you were making a different point just about JPEG usefulness vs DNG.

It was shot with a macro elmar 90mm at f4 so you’re right, not a lens that replicates your problems at all. As for making a point, I wasn’t!

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44 minutes ago, FrankX said:

Summilux 50 BC looks almost the same… 😕

I really hope that there will be a new firmware soon to correct this extremely strong vignetting!

BTW, I still believe there is a more severe problem with the lens profiles. On the 47 MP SL2 both, the FLE35 and the 50 BC, perform much better than on the M10. Maybe due to some in-camera corrections using the Maestro 3 processor. However, with the M11 now both seem to significantly worse. 

Optical vignetting itself showing up more or less strongly in the DNGs across M and SL variants is something else. I know my 28 Lux vignettes strongly at f/1.4, and I'm ok with that – I just want the vignetting to be rendered correctly to the JPEGs like it is on the M10 and SL cameras.

For what it's worth, Leica's vignetting correction via profiles has always been subtle – it will not remove the vignetting, that has to be done in LR/C1 to the DNGs in post.

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Just now, tashley said:

It was shot with a macro elmar 90mm at f4 so you’re right, not a lens that replicates your problems at all. As for making a point, I wasn’t!

Your images do illustrate that editing the DNGs can creatively surpass the in-camera JPEGs :) But yeah, to see this issue I'm describing, you have to have what amounts to a gradient (vignetting) superimposed over a continuous-tone subject (sky gradient, wall of a building, etc.).

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1 hour ago, Cupbest said:

Do you have a profile set? If not, what if you assign the 50f2 summicron profile?

i have that lens. I love it. 

I've tried it with the 50 Cron profile and with no profile. But of course stopping down so that there is little optical vignetting negates the issue. You have to have strong vignetting to provoke the issue, and sometimes that strong vignetting is creatively what I want to be there, so I don't want it removed anyway.

2 hours ago, Photoworks said:

did somebody contact Leica Germany support?

Seams something they should look at.

Not yet, but I plan to.

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2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Actually, if the post title or first post had said something about the jpeg driver affecting viewing the DNG's, as you did above, it would be more obvious what the overarching issue is. 

I don't have an 11, but will most likely someday (though probably more likely a used M12). I do find that Leica's are maybe getting ahead of themselves a bit. with the technology. Part of me would love to have a film MP style of digital M11 (with a screen though - that affectation I never got). No A mode, metering options, highlight protecting, live view, auto iso, electronic shutter etc etc. Instead just a pared down, central weighted meter,  aperture and shutter speed only image making machine. 

JPEG rendering engine affects the view on the LCD and EVF on all mirrorless cameras – it's what generates the video feed that you see. That's not something unique to Leica and is not the problem in and of itself. I just mentioned it since I wanted to make the point that even someone who shoots DNG-only may still see and possibly be annoyed by the strange peephole-vignetting effect while shooting.

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Nice blue sky today. This is probably the most dramatic demonstration of the issue – lens with heavy vignetting wide open against a blue sky. I think this is the example I'll send Leica.

 

SOOC JPEG (VIV setting, no adjustments):

 

DNG processed in C1 with High Contrast profile and exported to JPEG (no adjustments except increased exposure slider a bit):

Edited by hdmesa
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1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Yes, it helps to write it up in a clear and simple way. It takes time to do that, appreciate you taking it. Maybe point them to this thread once initial description of the problem has been accepted.

Email has been sent. Thanks for the encouragement to do so. Will report back with any response.

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54 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Nice blue sky today. This is probably the most dramatic demonstration of the issue – lens with heavy vignetting wide open against a blue sky. I think this is the example I'll send Leica.

 

SOOC JPEG (VIV setting, no adjustments):

 

DNG processed in C1 with High Contrast profile and exported to JPEG (no adjustments except increased exposure slider a bit):

 

 

Thanks for emailing in about this, turns out after testing. I can replicated the exact same issue on my APO35 and 28cron but on the APO50 and 90cron it doesn't happen. No clue why that is though. And on the lenses that heavily vignettes, it's showing the vignetting even stopped down to f11. 

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10 minutes ago, Ktsa5239 said:

 

 

Thanks for emailing in about this, turns out after testing. I can replicated the exact same issue on my APO35 and 28cron but on the APO50 and 90cron it doesn't happen. No clue why that is though. And on the lenses that heavily vignettes, it's showing the vignetting even stopped down to f11. 

That’s interesting. Sounds like a firmware glitch only affecting certain Leica M lenses and non-6-bit coded lenses.

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All very interesting.  Some sort of glitch in the firmware that performs the lens compensation for JPEGs only?

While I don't typically shoot JPEG, a bug is still a bug.  I almost always use manual exposure, but for the times that I'd want autoexposure, I'd like it to work.  Even if the display thing wasn't an issue, I can certainly understand complaining about the bug.

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2 hours ago, aristotle said:

All very interesting.  Some sort of glitch in the firmware that performs the lens compensation for JPEGs only?

While I don't typically shoot JPEG, a bug is still a bug.  I almost always use manual exposure, but for the times that I'd want autoexposure, I'd like it to work.  Even if the display thing wasn't an issue, I can certainly understand complaining about the bug.

The issue can affect live view and playback in all exposure modes and even if you only shoot DNG. But it doesn't affect the DNG once imported into LR/C1.

A lot of people won't notice the issue since it requires you 1) use a lens known to have heavy vignetting, 2) shoot that lens wide open, and 3) have a continuous tone background such as a blue sky.

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7 hours ago, hdmesa said:

The issue can affect live view and playback in all exposure modes and even if you only shoot DNG. But it doesn't affect the DNG once imported into LR/C1.

A lot of people won't notice the issue since it requires you 1) use a lens known to have heavy vignetting, 2) shoot that lens wide open, and 3) have a continuous tone background such as a blue sky.

As soon as the weather is nice again here and we get a deep blue sky, I'll try this with my 35 Lux.

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