In-camera M11 Monochrome JPEGs

[charlesphoto99]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Why would anyone shoot jpegs with a $12K camera (including basic lens)? May as well save the bother and expense and shoot an iPhone or Pixel. IMO the biggest flaw with the M11 (and previous models) is the user. Back in the film days, the darkroom was the great separator between pro and amateur, the ability to model an image into one's unique 'vision' of the scene after the photo was taken, vs just a mere 'dumb' representation of the scene. Jpegs are like proof sheets - great to know what's there but should have little bearing on what is ultimately the final image output. More users here would be better off learning to develop in Lightroom or C1 (or equivalents), instead of taking pictures of their coffee tables etc in a bid to discover obscure flaws with their new camera. 

(and yes, there are use cases for jpegs, but I'm not seeing them here)

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

IMO the biggest flaw with the M11 (and previous models) is the user...

People like you with posts like this always pop up on these threads. Act the part of the adult and read for context.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[charlesphoto99]

2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

People like you with posts like this always pop up on these threads. Act the part of the adult and read for context.

I read the whole thread, written I guess by 'people like you.' I see no context for needing to shoot jpegs in your o.p. My question still stands. 

[hdmesa]

22 hours ago, adan said:

Worrying about image quality in out-of-camera jpegs is like worrying about how well a pig can sing.

No, it's part of the user experience and important to the enjoyment of reviewing the images on the rear LCD (for me).

22 hours ago, adan said:

One is working with 8-bit data (256 gray levels) instead of the 14-bit data (16384 gray levels) in a .DNG, so naturally there can be more-abrupt tone gradients/cutoffs. It is built into the jpeg specifications - and baked into the images forever, the instant the camera creates them.

There are not abrupt gradient cutoffs in the JPEGs exported from a DNG processed to look just like the in-camera JPEG.

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I read the whole thread, written I guess by 'people like you.' I see no context for needing to shoot jpegs in your o.p. My question still stands. 

If you pry off your rear LCD, don't own a Visoflex, and don't occasionally use SOOC images, then I can see why you would be puzzled.

[charlesphoto99]

9 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

If you pry off your rear LCD, don't own a Visoflex, and don't occasionally use SOOC images, then I can see why you would be puzzled.

Not sure what the rear LCD or Visoflex has to do with anything. 

[hdmesa]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

4 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Not sure what the rear LCD or Visoflex has to do with anything. 

Let me explain it another way. Would you want to pay $9K for a camera and have the viewing experience on the rear LCD and Visoflex to be less than what it was with the M10 variants? With a lens like the 28 Lux or CV 50 APO wide open on certain subjects (continuous tone sky for example), the view on the LCD/Visoflex is peephole/binocular-esque. This viewing experience happens even with JPEGs turned off and only shooting DNGs since the running viewfinder video/image is generated from the JPEG engine.

Edited May 14, 2022 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

Here's a photo of the rear LCD so you can see what I'm seeing. This is the CV 50 APO at f/2 – subject is a wall, but think of that as a substitute for a blue sky or other continuous tone. This is not a normal viewing experience on the M, and the JPEGs generated from this are also not right. My M10-R and M10M didn't have this issue. 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited May 14, 2022 by hdmesa

[charlesphoto99]

9 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

This viewing experience happens even with JPEGs turned off and only shooting DNGs since the running viewfinder video/image is generated from the JPEG engine.

Ah, wasn't aware of this with the 11. There's the context needed. 

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Ah, wasn't aware of this with the 11. There's the context needed. 

It's in the post title and this is the M11 forum 🤷‍♂️ I do the same thing, though – I gave you a hard time for not reading for context, but I forgot what thread I was in – there's a companion discussion going on in another thread here where I talk about how I don't often use JPEGs and so on.

Edited May 14, 2022 by hdmesa

[charlesphoto99]

5 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

It's in the post title and this is the M11 forum 🤷‍♂️ I do the same thing, though – I gave you a hard time for not reading for context, but I forgot what thread I was in – there's a companion discussion going on in another thread here where I talk about how I don't often use JPEGs and so on.

Actually, if the post title or first post had said something about the jpeg driver affecting viewing the DNG's, as you did above, it would be more obvious what the overarching issue is. 

I don't have an 11, but will most likely someday (though probably more likely a used M12). I do find that Leica's are maybe getting ahead of themselves a bit. with the technology. Part of me would love to have a film MP style of digital M11 (with a screen though - that affectation I never got). No A mode, metering options, highlight protecting, live view, auto iso, electronic shutter etc etc. Instead just a pared down, central weighted meter,  aperture and shutter speed only image making machine. 

[SrMi]

37 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Let me explain it another way. Would you want to pay $9K for a camera and have the viewing experience on the rear LCD and Visoflex to be less than what it was with the M10 variants? With a lens like the 28 Lux or CV 50 APO wide open on certain subjects (continuous tone sky for example), the view on the LCD/Visoflex is peephole/binocular-esque. This viewing experience happens even with JPEGs turned off and only shooting DNGs since the running viewfinder video/image is generated from the JPEG engine.

What was Leica's response?

[Photoworks]

50 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Here's a photo of the rear LCD so you can see what I'm seeing. This is the CV 50 APO at f/2 – subject is a wall, but think of that as a substitute for a blue sky or other continuous tone. This is not a normal viewing experience on the M, and the JPEGs generated from this are also not right. My M10-R and M10M didn't have this issue. 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

did somebody contact Leica Germany support?

Seams something they should look at.

[tashley]

After this thread, and the one where the troll guy got banned, I got to thinking about my assertion that I never shoot in-camera JPEg other than as a backup and that I therefore have no idea, or interest in what the in-camera B&W looks like - though I do accept that it matters for some and that it therefore should be given some attention by Leica.

So I thought I'd set the camera to shoot DNG+JPEG and set the film style to B&W Nat/=.

I then set myself the challenge of not looking at the JPEGS until I had finished processing the DNGs to B&W to my taste. I then applied the crop from the DNG to the JPEG and exported them both per forum rules in order to see what they looked like side by side.

I make no comments as to whether this is a useful exercise or whether the results demonstrate anything but here it is: DNG first in each case.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[tashley]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[tashley]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[tashley]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[FrankX]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb hdmesa:

Here's a photo of the rear LCD so you can see what I'm seeing. This is the CV 50 APO at f/2 – subject is a wall, but think of that as a substitute for a blue sky or other continuous tone. This is not a normal viewing experience on the M, and the JPEGs generated from this are also not right. My M10-R and M10M didn't have this issue. 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Summilux 50 BC looks almost the same… 😕

I really hope that there will be a new firmware soon to correct this extremely strong vignetting!

BTW, I still believe there is a more severe problem with the lens profiles. On the 47 MP SL2 both, the FLE35 and the 50 BC, perform much better than on the M10. Maybe due to some in-camera corrections using the Maestro 3 processor. However, with the M11 now both seem to significantly worse. 

[FrankX]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb SrMi:

What was Leica's response?

Do you (or someone else) know where to address such issues? Mail to address customer.care@leica… ?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, FrankX said:

Do you (or someone else) know where to address such issues? Mail to address customer.care@leica… ?

I had previously good response from technicalinfo@leicacamerausa.com.