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M11 or SL2 for photography major in art school?


ymc226

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I suppose money is no object.

NYC is great. A live experience . I support the move. I still enjoy NYC.

A Leica in a hand of a student will be a head turner in class.

Anyway the M11 is to limiting for the only camera. I would start with SL2s.

But I think a newer canon or Sony camera with be better blend in a little more and not afraid of walking the streets of NYC.

Cheers

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On 5/9/2022 at 1:34 AM, Photoworks said:

I suppose money is no object.

NYC is great. A live experience . I support the move. I still enjoy NYC.

A Leica in a hand of a student will be a head turner in class.

Anyway the M11 is to limiting for the only camera. I would start with SL2s.

But I think a newer canon or Sony camera with be better blend in a little more and not afraid of walking the streets of NYC.

Cheers

Having worked in Manhattan in the 80s when crack had a hold over the city I find comments like this totally comical. I know dozens of photographers who walk the streets of New York with their Leicas and none of us are scared to do so. Of course if you wanna walk down the wrong street in the Bronx at 3 o’clock in the morning half in the bag, you might have some problems. 

My advice to the OP is to give their kid a used SL and a 28 Elmarit. If they can’t learn how to take good pictures with that setup, they’re never going to.
 

 

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On 5/8/2022 at 9:31 PM, ymc226 said:

She is going to Parsons School of Design.  I would guess Parsons is still considered an art school.  We were hoping that on revisit day that she would reconsider her decision to attend if she saw a lot of fellow students that were "weirdos" but my wife who accompanied her found her fellow classmates to be quite normal unfortunately. 

Ah yes not sure how I forgot that one. It's a good school as far as arts goes and connections from there are quite deep comparatively. All of this to say that...if you're going into the arts, it's one of the better spots to be and if you maximize the opportunities in NYC you can find a niche. 

The weird comes out over time, but most professionals end up not being that weird. Discipline, craft, time management, focus...all of those things that make a success in one career matter even more in the arts aside from idiosyncratic famous people that tend to suck up the air in the room. Most "middle class" artists need to have their stuff together to even have a chance. 

Still think hold off on the swanky kit for a freshman. 

Forget the single minded individual who said art school is a waste of money. Every school can be a waste of money for the wrong student. For the right student it can be invaluable. I've seen both (disclosure, I have both attended and taught at art school later in life, after "wasting" my school experience on something more traditional - not really a waste, just an added step in learning). 

What's a waste to me is how little American society actually values the arts beyond using them as a part of an investment strategy. 

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On 5/11/2022 at 10:51 AM, pgh said:

The weird comes out over time, but most professionals end up not being that weird. Discipline, craft, time management, focus...all of those things that make a success in one career matter even more in the arts aside from idiosyncratic famous people that tend to suck up the air in the room. Most "middle class" artists need to have their stuff together to even have a chance. 

Still think hold off on the swanky kit for a freshman. 

Forget the single minded individual who said art school is a waste of money. Every school can be a waste of money for the wrong student. For the right student it can be invaluable. I've seen both (disclosure, I have both attended and taught at art school later in life, after "wasting" my school experience on something more traditional - not really a waste, just an added step in learning). 

What's a waste to me is how little American society actually values the arts beyond using them as a part of an investment strategy. 

By referring to the weird, my oldest also went to The New School for her MFA in writing and her classmates were very strange appearing.  However, her friends from there are the nicest individuals. 

I will hold off on a camera kit for her until she progresses more into the school year or if she needs it earlier than that, she can tell me what her requirements are.  Other than fast action such as sports, would any mirrorless system do? Are DSLR's still the best at auto focus and tracking? 

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On 5/12/2022 at 8:13 PM, ymc226 said:

By referring to the weird, my oldest also went to The New School for her MFA in writing and her classmates were very strange appearing.  However, her friends from there are the nicest individuals. 

I will hold off on a camera kit for her until she progresses more into the school year or if she needs it earlier than that, she can tell me what her requirements are.  Other than fast action such as sports, would any mirrorless system do? Are DSLR's still the best at auto focus and tracking? 

MFA is a bit different, so is writing, ha. 

Any mirrorless is good, but whatever the school has best selection of is best because if you have a body you can check out whatever lenses they have and use them. And even with sports - sony, canon, nikon are fantastic in mirrorless. There are no bad options these days just better tools for how one likes to make pictures. I think the Fuji options and even the Olympus line are some of the most fun ways to learn manual photography digitally - and still great overall. Things can get a bit confusing for beginners if professor teaches basics relating to a full frame sensor or a aps-c sensor or whatever (students find it frustrating to not have that sensor that's being discussed) but that's a minor hiccup long term.  

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As someone who actually went through a college-level photo program (BA 1976, MA 1985) - and was a faculty brat who saw how colleges operated from the age of 8 ;) :

1) If she is already accepted, there is no reason not to contact the School/Department right now, and find out what their program requires or recommends. Or provides.

No need to wait until the first day of classes.

And download the catalog - which will tell you what she will be studying and when, for the whole 4 years. That's critical - see link on top left column of page: https://www.newschool.edu/parsons/bfa-photography/

For example, the outline for the 4-year Photo BFA at Parsons (from Catalog, page 67):

(My rough translation is - there are significant core required courses (e.g. PLHT 1000 or PUFY 1030 or PUPH 3111) that everyone must take - with an increasing amount of room for electives either within Photo, or in other Liberal Arts departments (broadening the mind stuff) over the last three years. The electives, and the Advanced Seminar (year 3) and Thesis (year 4) are the places where she'll really get a choice to "do her own thing." I could be wrong ;) but that is about normal for a college career in the Arts. You don't get to "find yourself" until you have the basics down pat, except incidentally, on your own time. Really just an old-school (hah!) apprenticeship, but more concentrated and broader, at the same time)

Bachelor of Fine Arts: Photography

Total Degree Credits: 120
College: Parsons School of Design
School: Art, Media, and Technology

Year 1
PLHT 1000 Objects as History
PUFY 1000 Integrative Studio 1
PUFY 1001 Integrative Studio 2
PUFY 1010 Integrative Seminar 1
PUFY 1011 Integrative Seminar 2
PUFY 1020 Space/Materiality
PUFY 1030 Drawing/Imaging
PUFY 1040 Time

PUFY 1100 Sustainable Systems
PUFY 12xx Program Elective

Year 2
PLVS 2300 History of Photography
PLVS 2500/2510 Intro to Visual Culture: Lec/Rec
PUPH 2013 Photo Topics
PUPH 2100 Core Studio 1: Photo Practices
PUPH 2101 Core Lab 1: Photo Practices
PUPH 2110 Core Studio 2: Photo Practices
PUPH 2111 Core Lab 2: Photo Practices
Liberal Arts: ULEC Elective
Program Electives

Year 3
PLxx 3500 Advanced Research Seminar
PUPH 3100 Core Studio 3: Photo Contexts
PUPH 3101 Core Lab 3: Photo Contexts
PUPH 3110 Core Studio 4: Photo Contexts
PUPH 3111 Core Lab 4: Photo Contexts
Liberal Arts: ULEC Elective

Program Electives

Year 4
PUPH 4100 Core Studio: Thesis 1
PUPH 4101 Core Lab: Professional Practices 1
PUPH 4110 Core Studio: Thesis 2
PUPH 4111 Core Lab: Professional Practices 2
Liberal Arts Electives
Program Electives

2) Therefore, there is a lot of assigned course work in photo programs - it's not a case of just jumping in and creating one's own art freestyle from the beginning. A lot of basics like studio lighting, natural lighting, photo processing, exposure, composition, focal lengths and their effects and use, etc. etc. etc.

3) because of 2), I would recommend a "generalist" camera. I started with a lower-end Canon FX SLR with 28, 50 and 2x converter, and built up gradually to a more-substantial Canon SLR kit. I did acquire a used Leica IIIc and later a Nikon SP, then Canon P rangefinders - but they were not my main "learning" cameras until I got to year three, which is also when my independent or elective optional courses really kicked in.

A manual-focus rangefinder is usually more generalist than most people think - but it takes a lot of experience to learn how to "hack" the limitations of an RF. Not something that can be done in the few years of a college program, while also trying to get the required work done. Of course, an M11 with EVF (pseudo-SLR) will work somewhat better than the RFs in the 1970s.

So I would recommend (unless the school says differently) a unitary SL2, or even SL2-S, that can handle macro and longer lenses (perhaps Panny/Sigma) and studio flash and so on, right out of the box. Or one of the other generalist systems.

Massive resolution will really be irrelevant at least for the first 2-3 years - better ISO or noise levels, and flexibility, will probably be worth more to complete assignments. Of course she can just shoot the M11 at 18 or 36 Mpixels. ;)

4) Weird folks? Yeah, well, I learned a lot from the weird folks (my program was broad and included photojournalism, commercial/studio and fine-art students - a lot of cross-fertilization of ideas). Of course, some of what I learned from the weird folks was what not to do (e.g. feed the Mormon commercial/studio professor Alice B. Toklas brownies ;)). But learning to work with and deal with a whole range of different people is an important part of, well, learning. Gotta let them live their own life sooner or later.

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I recommend business school for anyone who wants to be a professional photographer. Starting out? A Pentax k-1000, Olympus OM 2, or Nikon FM-2 and a nifty fifty is a good place to start. Along that line of thinking, there is something to be said for the simplicity of a manual camera like an M, but it’s really limited as a digital option. There isn’t much professional photography that can’t be done with an “old”  D810, except WiFi and it’s heavy. And video, but that’s not photography.

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8 hours ago, adan said:

...

4) Weird folks? Yeah, well, I learned a lot from the weird folks (my program was broad and included photojournalism, commercial/studio and fine-art students - a lot of cross-fertilization of ideas). Of course, some of what I learned from the weird folks was what not to do (e.g. feed the Mormon commercial/studio professor Alice B. Toklas brownies ;)). But learning to work with and deal with a whole range of different people is an important part of, well, learning. Gotta let them live their own life sooner or later.

Trust me, kids don't really know "weird folks" until they get a corporate job.

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On 5/8/2022 at 6:31 PM, ymc226 said:

She is going to Parsons School of Design.  I would guess Parsons is still considered an art school.  We were hoping that on revisit day that she would reconsider her decision to attend if she saw a lot of fellow students that were "weirdos" but my wife who accompanied her found her fellow classmates to be quite normal unfortunately. 

My eldest daughter graduates from The New School next week (parent university for Parsons)! She’s been very happy there, aside from COVID which made things tough for a performing arts major.

Most of the faculty are working professionals within their specialty, so New School/Parsons ends up providing better practical guidance and networking than many.

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Not knowing your daughter, here interests, previous camera experience, or level of maturity, I would say it could potentially be a huge burden to giver her a very expensive camera out of the gate. Kids lose and break things, have them stolen, etc and face it, she's still just a kid (and many of us remain so into adulthood). No reflection on your daughter personally, we were all there at one time. 

I would say at the top end I might go for a used Z6 and a trio of primes like 28,50, 135. Many photo teachers encourage students to eschew zooms, for good reason. But you'll have to ask her - like does she prefer optical slr or evf? (as others have said probably not ready for an rf yet).  Heck, even an iPhone 13 Pro could probably do the job. She may need to start with film, in which case there's plenty of inexpensive Nikon bodies and lenses, which could then be used on a Z6 with adapter. Lots of ways to go with this...

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Wait to see what the course requires.

I am guessing a film camera with little or no automation.My daughter went through her photography degree with a Bronica.

P.S. She was offered a place at Parsons but turned it down.

 

 

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11 hours ago, adan said:

As someone who actually went through a college-level photo program (BA 1976, MA 1985) - and was a faculty brat who saw how colleges operated from the age of 8 ;) :

1) If she is already accepted, there is no reason not to contact the School/Department right now, and find out what their program requires or recommends. Or provides.

No need to wait until the first day of classes.

And download the catalog - which will tell you what she will be studying and when, for the whole 4 years. That's critical - see link on top left column of page: https://www.newschool.edu/parsons/bfa-photography/

For example, the outline for the 4-year Photo BFA at Parsons (from Catalog, page 67):

(My rough translation is - there are significant core required courses (e.g. PLHT 1000 or PUFY 1030 or PUPH 3111) that everyone must take - with an increasing amount of room for electives either within Photo, or in other Liberal Arts departments (broadening the mind stuff) over the last three years. The electives, and the Advanced Seminar (year 3) and Thesis (year 4) are the places where she'll really get a choice to "do her own thing." I could be wrong ;) but that is about normal for a college career in the Arts. You don't get to "find yourself" until you have the basics down pat, except incidentally, on your own time. Really just an old-school (hah!) apprenticeship, but more concentrated and broader, at the same time)

Bachelor of Fine Arts: Photography

Total Degree Credits: 120
College: Parsons School of Design
School: Art, Media, and Technology

Year 1
PLHT 1000 Objects as History
PUFY 1000 Integrative Studio 1
PUFY 1001 Integrative Studio 2
PUFY 1010 Integrative Seminar 1
PUFY 1011 Integrative Seminar 2
PUFY 1020 Space/Materiality
PUFY 1030 Drawing/Imaging
PUFY 1040 Time

PUFY 1100 Sustainable Systems
PUFY 12xx Program Elective

Year 2
PLVS 2300 History of Photography
PLVS 2500/2510 Intro to Visual Culture: Lec/Rec
PUPH 2013 Photo Topics
PUPH 2100 Core Studio 1: Photo Practices
PUPH 2101 Core Lab 1: Photo Practices
PUPH 2110 Core Studio 2: Photo Practices
PUPH 2111 Core Lab 2: Photo Practices
Liberal Arts: ULEC Elective
Program Electives

Year 3
PLxx 3500 Advanced Research Seminar
PUPH 3100 Core Studio 3: Photo Contexts
PUPH 3101 Core Lab 3: Photo Contexts
PUPH 3110 Core Studio 4: Photo Contexts
PUPH 3111 Core Lab 4: Photo Contexts
Liberal Arts: ULEC Elective

Program Electives

Year 4
PUPH 4100 Core Studio: Thesis 1
PUPH 4101 Core Lab: Professional Practices 1
PUPH 4110 Core Studio: Thesis 2
PUPH 4111 Core Lab: Professional Practices 2
Liberal Arts Electives
Program Electives

2) Therefore, there is a lot of assigned course work in photo programs - it's not a case of just jumping in and creating one's own art freestyle from the beginning. A lot of basics like studio lighting, natural lighting, photo processing, exposure, composition, focal lengths and their effects and use, etc. etc. etc.

3) because of 2), I would recommend a "generalist" camera. I started with a lower-end Canon FX SLR with 28, 50 and 2x converter, and built up gradually to a more-substantial Canon SLR kit. I did acquire a used Leica IIIc and later a Nikon SP, then Canon P rangefinders - but they were not my main "learning" cameras until I got to year three, which is also when my independent or elective optional courses really kicked in.

A manual-focus rangefinder is usually more generalist than most people think - but it takes a lot of experience to learn how to "hack" the limitations of an RF. Not something that can be done in the few years of a college program, while also trying to get the required work done. Of course, an M11 with EVF (pseudo-SLR) will work somewhat better than the RFs in the 1970s.

So I would recommend (unless the school says differently) a unitary SL2, or even SL2-S, that can handle macro and longer lenses (perhaps Panny/Sigma) and studio flash and so on, right out of the box. Or one of the other generalist systems.

Massive resolution will really be irrelevant at least for the first 2-3 years - better ISO or noise levels, and flexibility, will probably be worth more to complete assignments. Of course she can just shoot the M11 at 18 or 36 Mpixels. ;)

4) Weird folks? Yeah, well, I learned a lot from the weird folks (my program was broad and included photojournalism, commercial/studio and fine-art students - a lot of cross-fertilization of ideas). Of course, some of what I learned from the weird folks was what not to do (e.g. feed the Mormon commercial/studio professor Alice B. Toklas brownies ;)). But learning to work with and deal with a whole range of different people is an important part of, well, learning. Gotta let them live their own life sooner or later.

Wow!  Thanks for all the advice and helpful information.  Being a serious hobbyist, I am jealous that I can't sit in on some of her courses.  I agree with starting with a "generalist" camera system with a few primes and suggest she reach out to her professors regarding equipment recommendations.   

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3 hours ago, Jared said:

My eldest daughter graduates from The New School next week (parent university for Parsons)! She’s been very happy there, aside from COVID which made things tough for a performing arts major.

Most of the faculty are working professionals within their specialty, so New School/Parsons ends up providing better practical guidance and networking than many.

Congratulations!  My oldest daughter also enjoyed her time at The New School as well; she continues to work in the city as does my son.  I'm comforted that they are all close and the two older siblings can keep an eye on the youngest as me and my wife are both in California.  My wife also agrees that there are many avenues she could pursue with a photography degree and the networking of Parsons is pretty good.  

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9 hours ago, Silken said:

I recommend business school for anyone who wants to be a professional photographer. Starting out? A Pentax k-1000, Olympus OM 2, or Nikon FM-2 and a nifty fifty is a good place to start. Along that line of thinking, there is something to be said for the simplicity of a manual camera like an M, but it’s really limited as a digital option. There isn’t much professional photography that can’t be done with an “old”  D810, except WiFi and it’s heavy. And video, but that’s not photography.

I wouldn't mind if she went with a more traditionally practical major but it isn't in her personality.  She tried to force it all up to and throughout high school due to perceived expectations but I am glad she went with her heart.  I do have several Nikon FE2/FM2s along with numerous AIS lenses that she could have if that is what they start her out with.  

3 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Not knowing your daughter, here interests, previous camera experience, or level of maturity, I would say it could potentially be a huge burden to giver her a very expensive camera out of the gate. Kids lose and break things, have them stolen, etc and face it, she's still just a kid (and many of us remain so into adulthood). No reflection on your daughter personally, we were all there at one time. 

I would say at the top end I might go for a used Z6 and a trio of primes like 28,50, 135. Many photo teachers encourage students to eschew zooms, for good reason. But you'll have to ask her - like does she prefer optical slr or evf? (as others have said probably not ready for an rf yet).  Heck, even an iPhone 13 Pro could probably do the job. She may need to start with film, in which case there's plenty of inexpensive Nikon bodies and lenses, which could then be used on a Z6 with adapter. Lots of ways to go with this...

I understand completely where you are coming from.  She is very mature but not street smart yet as she has lived quite a cloistered life so far.  Since my hobbyist interest in photography began with Nikon, I was thinking if the school recommends mirrorless, to go with the Z series and either primes or zooms (but mentioned above as not optimal).  Whatever the requirements, if I have to get her something, I would make a trip out of it, fly into NYC for a visit with her to B&H which would more be a vacation for me😀

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18 minutes ago, ymc226 said:

Being a serious hobbyist, I am jealous that I can't sit in on some of her courses

Even as a pro, sometimes I'd like to refresh my formal training experience, too. ;)

Fortunately, I found a co-op gallery that, with 100± members, reminds me a lot of my college art/photo departments (except minus the deadlines and grades ;) although I guess every sale is a "grade" of sorts). A lot of exchanging ideas, even by osmosis.

It is probably possible to audit Parsons courses, but obviously not very convenient if NYC means "travel."

However maybe you can find some courses locally (regional colleges, museum classes, "adult" ed) - and maybe she can sit in with you during her college breaks.

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First of all, congratulations!

Since she'll probably end up having to use a full frame mirrorless camera for coursework, I would suggest a film camera for personal work. It's a time-honored tradition by now.

Here are some gift ideas:

The Contax TVS is an affordable luxury compared to the insane prices that the T2 and T3 go for in the current film camera bubble. Compact and casual, it would be a break from the full frame workhorses. Any compact camera would do.

An instant camera such as a refurbished Polaroid SX-70 or MiNT InstantKon SF70. Share prints with new friends, and the element of chance makes it fun.

A slower camera. Medium or large format. Yashica-A. Pentax 645. Crown Graphic. Something to exercise craft.

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On 5/14/2022 at 5:14 AM, Silken said:

I recommend business school for anyone who wants to be a professional photographer. Starting out? A Pentax k-1000, Olympus OM 2, or Nikon FM-2 and a nifty fifty is a good place to start. Along that line of thinking, there is something to be said for the simplicity of a manual camera like an M, but it’s really limited as a digital option. There isn’t much professional photography that can’t be done with an “old”  D810, except WiFi and it’s heavy. And video, but that’s not photography.

Running a photography business and making photographs that are interesting are two, almost totally separate things except in the top tiers of the field, really. I do not recommend it simply because none of the most successful and interesting photographs I know have done that. Business is something that can be learned along the way. So are the technicals of the camera - but the critical and discursive environment of an art program is unique. 

If you go to business school you'll quickly learn there are smarter ways to work than being a photographer. Business school is fine, and I've known some photographers who went, but - and I say this with respect because it's not their goal - they are not making any cultural or artistic contribution to society in most cases, because they have not been challenged by anyone who knows what that means along the way. You will never push yourself if you deal with corporate/household clients because they want things that they've seen 1000 times before, just for their own use. Again, this is fine, not saying it is good or bad, but you need to be honest with yourself about what your goals with a camera are. 

If you go to photo school, you're at least spending time on what you are interested in (and if you don't enjoy your art program you can't leave soon enough and spare yourself that debt). If you don't study photo, then a liberal arts track like history, philosophy (of various stripes), political science and art history are great ways to lay a foundation for a thoughtful and intentional photographer - or better yet, if you know your subject, study that. Lots of great conservation photographers study biology or ecology, conflict photogs have studied politics/conflict...etc etc.

This isn't 1999...you can go to photo school and barely touch a darkroom. A K1000 isn't the prescription anymore, though of course they can still have their use! 

Since it might be germane to the conversation here - besides teaching in both journalism and art departments in R1 institutions, my career has been half editorial/commercial work, and half an art practice. I've done an interdisciplinary MFA (where I focused on surprise, mostly photo), and earlier an M.A. focusing on photojournalism. That may seem redundant, but the two experiences couldn't have been more different and I learned a lot of valuable stuff (good and bad) from each one. I don't think any of them are a panacea but for the right students they make a life worth living and set you up to challenge yourself for years to come. 

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On 5/18/2022 at 1:14 PM, pgh said:Running a photography business and making photographs that are interesting are two, almost totally separate things except in the top tiers of the field, really. I do not recommend it simply because none of the most successful and interesting photographs I know have done that. Business is something that can be learned along the way. So are the technicals of the camera - but the critical and discursive environment of an art program is unique. 

I agree most great artists are not good business people, and vice versa, and I appreciate that I am somewhat unique or lucky there. And I’m not even that good of a business person. I can’t imagine starting a photography business with the intention of being anything other than in the top tier of the field these days. It’s bad business to be in the middle- a position where you’re competing with people whose other jobs cover their health insurance and retirement plan, or others who just want to do it for free.

I studied economics (and envi), but wish someone had recommended business (alas I had no intention of working as a photographer or opening a gallery). I took whatever photo electives I could, and was always shooting. With the absence of an art school community, I can’t speak to that, but I have learned to take a picture through mostly just getting out and doing it. And now there’s YouTube! Hahaha

Art schools with a minimal focus on business are to be taken as only one piece of an education, and I really think most need to be more well rounded. I remember speaking at Hallmark institute, a dozen years ago when it still existed, and was flabbergasted to learn they had each student buy a car-priced digital medium format kit! A poor investment lesson and technically/creatively restrictive.

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