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Shooting with SF-40 Flash, SL2 viewfinder exposure preview is all over the place


pgh

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Does anyone shoot with flash much on their SL2? I'm using mine in TTL and the exposure preview through the viewfinder is all over the place - like I get a preview that reads as if I'm +2 EV but I'm shooting in manual mode with the flash and the exposure I am set at (for an underexposed background) is about -1 EV for the scene. I'm new to trying this with this camera but struggling to make sense of how it behaves. This could be a simple user error issue but I don't know where to go from here. I also find it strange when the flash is on TTL in A or P mode it doesn't default to the shutter sync speed (or 1/60) as other cameras systems tend to do. 

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On 5/5/2022 at 8:08 PM, pgh said:

Does anyone shoot with flash much on their SL2? I'm using mine in TTL and the exposure preview through the viewfinder is all over the place - like I get a preview that reads as if I'm +2 EV but I'm shooting in manual mode with the flash and the exposure I am set at (for an underexposed background) is about -1 EV for the scene. I'm new to trying this with this camera but struggling to make sense of how it behaves. This could be a simple user error issue but I don't know where to go from here. I also find it strange when the flash is on TTL in A or P mode it doesn't default to the shutter sync speed (or 1/60) as other cameras systems tend to do. 

I’m not A professional, but don’t have a flash with my SL2-S. When I bought my camera, Dan Tamarkin (who sold it to me) said I’ll never need a flash, and he’s correct.  I have an excellent tripod for low light outdoor shooting, but even in low light indoor photos with no tripod I don’t miss a flash. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Doug Trabaris said:

 ....... but even in low light indoor photos with no tripod I don’t miss a flash. 

You are not alone.  I am primarily an available light shooter and flash done poorly is worse than no flash at all.  That said, since photography is all about capturing the light, it is hard to get a good image in bad light.  By bad I don't necessarily mean low light, which can often be fine, rather light from some LEDs, sodium vapor lamps, etc. Even mixed light from more traditional sources can be a problem. I regularly shoot in a venue where the light is a mixture of tungsten, fluorescent, and daylight through stained glass. There is plenty of light for handheld exposure but getting the colors (particularly skin tones) to be pleasing is a challenge.  When possible, I use ceiling bounce flash that eliminates all the color issues and produces much more pleasing shots.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Luke_Miller:

That said, since photography is all about capturing the light, it is hard to get a good image in bad light.  By bad I don't necessarily mean low light, which can often be fine, rather light from some LEDs, sodium vapor lamps, etc. Even mixed light from more traditional sources can be a problem. 

Correct! Quality of light is a decisive factor in photography. And quality also means the right direction, softness and so on… A flash can be very useful in bright daylight!

I think flash equipment and control is one of the weakest points of Leica cameras!

That said, I am considering buying an somewhat overpriced SF60 flash for my SL2 (for wedding photography).

Therefore, it would be great to understand if TO‘s problem is a common one or just some wrong settings.

 

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When you use the Leica flash SF60 or SF40 the preview exposure turns off on the SL2.

I have tried many other flashes from godox, Profoto and Metz. I have even tried the equipment from Nissin made for Panasonic.

the fact is that most brand have different connecters and some of them interfere with the electronic in the camera. Some of them don't lock..

 

SF-60 works well if you use it as a flash strait to subject. If you change angle and bounce the exposure is all over the range. Flash stops because overheating, Adding larger modifiers make the flash unstable and as you move the heard starts falling down often.
Many modern flash charge quickly because they come with a dedicated rechargeable battery. The Nissan does not provide that, but if you shoot quicker like I do I would suggest using external power. I use the godox PB960 with Sony cable.

I often add to the mix CTO gels, a 1/2 or a full. to balance my flash to the room light.

Leica told me that they are working with Profoto to get  a proper connecter and trigger, but 1.5 years has gone buy.

This days I use the flash in M mode to 1/4 to 1/16. the camera to 800 ISO and 1/125 and f5.6 for event photography.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Photoworks:

SF-60 works well if you use it as a flash strait to subject. If you change angle and bounce the exposure is all over the range.

This days I use the flash in M mode to 1/4 to 1/16. the camera to 800 ISO and 1/125 and f5.6 for event photography.

First statement: Is this combo really that bad? My Fuji X-T3 + Godox V1 work quite flawless bouncing the flash in TTL (sometimes, I have to adjust flash by 0.7 stops). I thought that would be more or less a standard TTL behavior of modern camera/ flash combinations today (including Leica SL2 w/ SF60).

Second statement: How do you manage the get the right balance between ambient and flash light quick enough for event photography manually? The bouncing wall or ceiling may be 1 m behind you or 5 m depending on the location which can quickly change. I ask because I tried this approach with the SL2 and my Godox V1 at home during a "Christmas party". It turned out to be very challenging... 😉

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2 hours ago, FrankX said:

First statement: Is this combo really that bad? My Fuji X-T3 + Godox V1 work quite flawless bouncing the flash in TTL (sometimes, I have to adjust flash by 0.7 stops). I thought that would be more or less a standard TTL behavior of modern camera/ flash combinations today (including Leica SL2 w/ SF60).

I find there are many challenges with this set up. 1. the SL2 is slow focusing in low light, and often misses. 2. Any other camera system is better at that with light modifiers.

3. I have to lock most wheels and buttons on the camera so that the exposure does not change when it is on my side on a strap. I use a send camera just for ambiance images with no flash.

I would pick canon Sony or other options..

2 hours ago, FrankX said:

How do you manage the get the right balance between ambient and flash light quick enough for event photography manually? The bouncing wall or ceiling may be 1 m behind you or 5 m depending on the location which can quickly change. I ask because I tried this approach with the SL2 and my Godox V1 at home during a "Christmas party". It turned out to be very challenging...

It is even more challenging if you go in and out of even with a closed room and then the next moment you are outside in daylight.

In you case I would suggest find a balance. Start with an Iso setting of just the room that you are constable with and then take some test shots with adding the flash to brighten the foreground.

It is not unusual for me to increase ISO to 1600 or 3200 if it is real dark.

 

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18 hours ago, FrankX said:

Second statement: How do you manage the get the right balance between ambient and flash light quick enough for event photography manually? The bouncing wall or ceiling may be 1 m behind you or 5 m depending on the location which can quickly change.

The ceiling height rarely changes, so I've always found manual flash to be more consistent than any TTL/auto setup. Note, however, that this is using the flash as a fill, not as a key (main). Using an automated flash just means that every shot will require different exposure adjustments in post, which is a pain.

Basically, I will do a quick check in every new location. You can check in advance if it's a wedding, or any event with a limited number of locations. Digital makes it very easy to verify your exposure, so you'll know right away if you got it wrong.

 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb BernardC:

The ceiling height rarely changes, so I've always found manual flash to be more consistent than any TTL/auto setup. Note, however, that this is using the flash as a fill, not as a key (main). Using an automated flash just means that every shot will require different exposure adjustments in post, which is a pain.

You're right with the ceiling height, but this is often only a compromise to get reasonable light quality. However, I learned from Jerry Ghionis that you get the best light by bouncing the flash (i. e. direction of flash head) into the same direction the subject is looking. At least, it yields the most flattering light in most cases.

You're right with your pain point... (same applies for using auto exposure even w/o flash 🙂). However, manually bouncing flash in different directions in the best case yields the same necessity of exposure adjustments in post. At least for me, it is really difficult to adjust the exposure w/o one or two test shots.

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On 5/7/2022 at 9:18 PM, Doug Trabaris said:

I’m not A professional, but don’t have a flash with my SL2-S. When I bought my camera, Dan Tamarkin (who sold it to me) said I’ll never need a flash, and he’s correct.  I have an excellent tripod for low light outdoor shooting, but even in low light indoor photos with no tripod I don’t miss a flash. 

 

 

I'm happy for you. So, do you have anything relevant to offer? If a salesperson told me what I did and didn't need out of a camera I would buy from somewhere else - they want to sell a camera, only I know what I need out of it. 

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On 5/9/2022 at 11:37 AM, Photoworks said:

When you use the Leica flash SF60 or SF40 the preview exposure turns off on the SL2.

Yes, I thought this to be the case - but then when my flash is mounted as I've got an exposure that is -1 for the scene (let's say I'm set at 1/125), why do I focus and then get an exposure that looks like something that's a 1/8 sec exposure (almost totally blown out), until flash fires then it resets, then next frame is different. 

 

On 5/9/2022 at 2:47 PM, FrankX said:

First statement: Is this combo really that bad? My Fuji X-T3 + Godox V1 work quite flawless bouncing the flash in TTL (sometimes, I have to adjust flash by 0.7 stops). I thought that would be more or less a standard TTL behavior of modern camera/ flash combinations today (including Leica SL2 w/ SF60).

"That bad" is subjective. Leica flashes are fine in manual mode, and the TTL results are even pretty decent - it's the exposure preview (or some other behavior in live view) that's wonky, for me. I've had generally consistent and solid results with the SF40 in TTL on my M10 over years of use, but am admittedly still getting used to the SL2. But yea, every other brand has a better automated experience. 

 

On 5/9/2022 at 2:47 PM, FrankX said:

Second statement: How do you manage the get the right balance between ambient and flash light quick enough for event photography manually? The bouncing wall or ceiling may be 1 m behind you or 5 m depending on the location which can quickly change. I ask because I tried this approach with the SL2 and my Godox V1 at home during a "Christmas party". It turned out to be very challenging... 😉

I don't bounce (not usually a fan of that look), but know your environment, know your subject distance, know your background exposure. I don't use my flash for events thankfully. And I don't try to hide or diminish it's presence in my work when I do use it, so a lot of those traditional techniques don't apply to what I am doing. I also do work that allows more time for adjustment, but if I were using this for events I'd be practicing at home getting to know all of this stuff intimately or better yet probably keeping another camera system around, even though I am not a fan of overcomplicating a setup. 

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2 hours ago, pgh said:

Yes, I thought this to be the case - but then when my flash is mounted as I've got an exposure that is -1 for the scene (let's say I'm set at 1/125), why do I focus and then get an exposure that looks like something that's a 1/8 sec exposure (almost totally blown out), until flash fires then it resets, then next frame is different. 

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to explain how you expect exposure preview to work with flash.

The camera really only have two options for exposure preview. (1) Provide preview of scene without adding contribution from flash and (2) Provide preview of scene with contribution from flash.

(1) is easy but has its draw backs because if the scene is primarily lit by flash, then you’ll end up with a completely unrepresentative preview. (2) is more user friendly but this is scene dependent the camera needs to know what elements are in the background vs foreground and have a distance estimate which is nearly impossible to do well and will result in in accurate previews. AF algorithms can estimate distance but it is only to the point of focus which means the camera won’t know what elements are part of the background in the scene.

These issues does not exist with DSLRs since they don’t provide previews. It’s a lot more challenging with mirrorless and it seems with the abundance of cheap LED light panels most people with mirrorless systems have migrated to using constant LED lighting instead.

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2 minutes ago, beewee said:

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to explain how you expect exposure preview to work with flash.

The camera really only have two options for exposure preview. (1) Provide preview of scene without adding contribution from flash and (2) Provide preview of scene with contribution from flash.

(1) is easy but has its draw backs because if the scene is primarily lit by flash, then you’ll end up with a completely unrepresentative preview. (2) is more user friendly but this is scene dependent the camera needs to know what elements are in the background vs foreground and have a distance estimate which is nearly impossible to do well and will result in in accurate previews. AF algorithms can estimate distance but it is only to the point of focus which means the camera won’t know what elements are part of the background in the scene.

These issues does not exist with DSLRs since they don’t provide previews. It’s a lot more challenging with mirrorless and it seems with the abundance of cheap LED light panels most people with mirrorless systems have migrated to using constant LED lighting instead.

Option one. 

The way I use flash, the scene is never entirely lit by it. Basically, I just want the camera to work as normal as if there is no flash mounted on it! But it somehow jumps around a bunch when my exposure itself does not. TTL can (and does) do the rest - i.e. properly expose what is not in the background.  

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22 hours ago, pgh said:

Option one. 

The way I use flash, the scene is never entirely lit by it. Basically, I just want the camera to work as normal as if there is no flash mounted on it! But it somehow jumps around a bunch when my exposure itself does not. TTL can (and does) do the rest - i.e. properly expose what is not in the background.  

Just use an old flash that has A mode on it and don't use the TTL

If you are using a single pin hotshot flash the camera does not pick up a flash and preview is normal..

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5 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Just use an old flash that has A mode on it and don't use the TTL

If you are using a single pin hotshot flash the camera does not pick up a flash and preview is normal..

I could do that but I still want that Leica TTL, as I have had and am used to on my M10. Doesn't seem to be asking much for a rebadged Nissin that they scrape 200% profit on because of a brand badge. You shouldn't have to do base level workarounds when you drop this much on a system. 

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4 hours ago, pgh said:

I could do that but I still want that Leica TTL, as I have had and am used to on my M10. Doesn't seem to be asking much for a rebadged Nissin that they scrape 200% profit on because of a brand badge. You shouldn't have to do base level workarounds when you drop this much on a system. 

so the price is the complaint?

Nissin is not the best. but it does not have anything to do with the preview you are compiling about.

anyway I think any mirrors camera will not preview ambient exposure with TTL

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36 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

so the price is the complaint?

This seems to come up a fair bit with Leica. The expectation is that you pay more and you get more but that’s not necessarily the case. Same could be said about AF where just because you pay a premium, it doesn’t mean you’ll get AF that competes with Sony, Nikon, Canon, Fuji.

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21 hours ago, Photoworks said:

so the price is the complaint?

Nissin is not the best. but it does not have anything to do with the preview you are compiling about.

anyway I think any mirrors camera will not preview ambient exposure with TTL

My i40 did this perfectly on a Sony, and my Pen F does it with that tiny free little thing it comes with. This is literally just doing the exposure preview as it would were the flash not mounted. It's not asking a lot. The price isn't the complaint per se - only that I pay more and get worse for paying more. That's just stupid. The complaint is that the camera does not behave in a consisent and predictable way as it should. 

 

20 hours ago, beewee said:

This seems to come up a fair bit with Leica. The expectation is that you pay more and you get more but that’s not necessarily the case. Same could be said about AF where just because you pay a premium, it doesn’t mean you’ll get AF that competes with Sony, Nikon, Canon, Fuji.

No one's asking for "more" here - just base level predictable functionality. Not sure if you read what I was actually asking about but it's hardly a complicated thing. I just want the viewfinder to not jump around in exposure preview when I am not actually changing aperture/shutter/iso settings. IE, to behave as if it would when a flash is not mounted. 

What I see come up a fair bit with Leica is defending inconsistent QC - telling people they should expect less - ie unreliable overall functionality of a tool executing the most basic of the tasks it is built to do. You can get by on telling people the designs are what make them special but defending subpar product quality while trying to justify a 2-3x price tag to brands who have no trouble with these issues is silly.

I've only ever had 3 new digital cameras ship to me with problems in my life. They've all been Leicas. Fortunately the SL2 "only" came with paint smudging on the hotshoe (and now this flash issue), so I kept it - because it wasn't an issue like the line across my sensor, the ISO dial not working or the lens coding not working that required sending it back in other models I've bought. 

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I’m not here to defend Leica. In fact, I too am critical in other aspects. The point I’m making is that Leica cameras are not do-everything cameras. Far from it. Leica cameras really suck at a lot of things.

Need super teles? Find a different brand.

Need fast AF? Find a different brand.

Need professional support with loaner equipment and fast turn around on repairs? Find a different brand.

Need high shooting speed with AF? Find a different brand.

Need gimbal support? Find a different brand.

Need flash? Seems like you have your answer.

I shoot Leica because of the simplicity and when I bought into the M and SL systems, I know that they’re not going to suit every single form of photography but I also know that it doesn’t limit me in the way I shoot so I’m fine with the limitation.

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