New M11 – Rangefinder out of vertical alignment

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, Ba Erv said:

A prime example of why I canceled my M11 order.  Loose QC doesn’t cut it for a $9000 camera.

Did you also cancel your M10 or M10-R order, since Gordon reported the same issue on those cameras as well?

[oka]

42 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Waiting for the M11-P is sounding like the best bet to me at this point.

Good luck with that, with M10 I was struggling with frequent RF calibration and drifting, hoping that M10-P would fix it. It didn't.

I hoped that M10-R would fix it. It didn't.

I hoped that M10-M would fix it. It didn't.

I hoped that M11 would fix it. It did (and after few months RF has not drifted).

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[Ba Erv]

36 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Did you also cancel your M10 or M10-R order, since Gordon reported the same issue on those cameras as well?

Thanks for the confirmation I made the right decision.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, oka said:

Good luck with that, with M10 I was struggling with frequent RF calibration and drifting, hoping that M10-P would fix it. It didn't.

I hoped that M10-R would fix it. It didn't.

I hoped that M10-M would fix it. It didn't.

I hoped that M11 would fix it. It did (and after few months RF has not drifted).

I guess I'm out then until there is an M variant with a built-in EVF. For now, my SL2-S will keep doing a good enough job.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

M's are hand assembled mechanical devices. That makes the mechanical bits less reliable and subject to issues. Sure it's annoying and common. Really annoying. It should also be expected. All small product run hand assembled goods are the same and mostly these are at the top end of the market. Mechanical watches. Italian sports cars. Leica cameras. It's just part of the ownership experience with hand assembled goods. I have no idea why anyone would expect anything assembled by hand to be anything else. Price is not and has never been, an indicator of reliability or functionality.

Besides, it takes minutes to adjust a modern Leica RF. And it will drift, or be subject to a serious movement if you drop the camera. If you're in the middle of nowhere when it happens you can either sort it or whinge. Personally I think knowing how to adjust a RF should be a normal part of M ownership. My Leica bag has had a 2mm allen key and some thick wooden toothpicks in it for years. 

When a lens is out it's Leica being lazy. An RF is expected and common. Likely it left the factory fine and moved in shipping. You don't have to like it but I wouldn't return a camera because of it. A warranty centre should be able to sort it in a few days, if pushed.

Gordon

[Ba Erv]

4 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

M's are hand assembled mechanical devices. That makes the mechanical bits less reliable and subject to issues. Sure it's annoying and common. Really annoying. It should also be expected. All small product run hand assembled goods are the same and mostly these are at the top end of the market. Mechanical watches. Italian sports cars. Leica cameras. It's just part of the ownership experience with hand assembled goods. I have no idea why anyone would expect anything assembled by hand to be anything else. Price is not and has never been, an indicator of reliability or functionality.

Besides, it takes minutes to adjust a modern Leica RF. And it will drift, or be subject to a serious movement if you drop the camera. If you're in the middle of nowhere when it happens you can either sort it or whinge. Personally I think knowing how to adjust a RF should be a normal part of M ownership. My Leica bag has had a 2mm allen key and some thick wooden toothpicks in it for years. 

When a lens is out it's Leica being lazy. An RF is expected and common. Likely it left the factory fine and moved in shipping. You don't have to like it but I wouldn't return a camera because of it. A warranty centre should be able to sort it in a few days, if pushed.

Gordon

My M3 DS hasn’t required a RF calibration since I dropped it off a streetcar in New Orleans in 1990, my 31 year old Datejust has never been serviced and still is within +/- 3 seconds a day…I don’t own a Lamborghini.

[hdmesa]

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4 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

M's are hand assembled mechanical devices. That makes the mechanical bits less reliable and subject to issues. Sure it's annoying and common. Really annoying. It should also be expected. All small product run hand assembled goods are the same and mostly these are at the top end of the market. Mechanical watches. Italian sports cars. Leica cameras. It's just part of the ownership experience with hand assembled goods. I have no idea why anyone would expect anything assembled by hand to be anything else. Price is not and has never been, an indicator of reliability or functionality.

Besides, it takes minutes to adjust a modern Leica RF. And it will drift, or be subject to a serious movement if you drop the camera. If you're in the middle of nowhere when it happens you can either sort it or whinge. Personally I think knowing how to adjust a RF should be a normal part of M ownership. My Leica bag has had a 2mm allen key and some thick wooden toothpicks in it for years. 

When a lens is out it's Leica being lazy. An RF is expected and common. Likely it left the factory fine and moved in shipping. You don't have to like it but I wouldn't return a camera because of it. A warranty centre should be able to sort it in a few days, if pushed.

Gordon

I don't even know where to start with this, so I'm just going to let it air out like a bad fart.

In any case, I said it may make sense for me to wait for an M with a built-in EVF. Or I may roll the dice again, who knows.

[hmzimelka]

While I understand that Leica M cameras are hand assembled, I don't really accept the varying build tolerances and quality control issues as an acceptable reality over mass produced camera and lenses. 

Like it was said, it takes short time to calibrate the rangefinder. It can be done properly at the factory, since they use calibration aids that make the process so much easier than what the end user has access too. I've adjusted range finders plenty of times to acceptable levels, so there should be no excuse for Leica. 

I also don't agree that a rangefinder can drift over shipping unless the box is severely man handled or exposed to large and quick temperature fluctuations. If a M camera's RF mechanism settles in after initial calibration then it should be common place this many years down the line to create a second RF calibration check in the production of M cameras and not leave it to chance for a paying customer.

I'm on my fourth M11 due to various issues I won't elaborate on, but I can confidently say that the rangefinder was spot on for focus and vertical alignment on every single on. Since the M10-R, I think Leica has needed to up their game with rangefinder reliability and accuracy. The M9 and M Monochrom were a joke. I went through 3 Monochromes and they all had large variations in rangefinder accuracy and calibration. One was so far out that I couldn't achieve subject focus with an Elmarit even at f/8. All new out the box cameras. 

I have a M3 DS, that last saw a Leica "service" in the 70's. It's had a long life on a Farm in Namibia. It's had to endure harsh weather and travel conditions. It hasn't once faltered or lost rangefinder calibration in that time. 

Voigtlander lenses are also hand assembled, and I've experienced less quality control issues, de-centring and calibration issues with Voigtlander than with Leica lenses at 3-10x the price. 
Seriously, aperture blades that fall out of their assembly in Leica APO 50 ASPH lenses. Loose lens barrels on barely used Summilux 50 ASPH lenses, etc. I've friends who shoot Leica and these thick skinned Leica fan boys have fatigued over the years with the issues expected from Leica. A friend of mine has needed to send in his M9 to Leica on average every year for the last 8 or so years. 

Leica for me is/was an emotional purchasing decision. If I were to rely on a purely rational decision making process I wouldn't touch Leica. I've lost so much money in this process it still keeps me from sleeping properly at times...

Edited April 20, 2022 by hmzimelka

[dkmoore]

On 4/19/2022 at 5:42 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

M's are hand assembled mechanical devices. That makes the mechanical bits less reliable and subject to issues. Sure it's annoying and common. Really annoying. It should also be expected. All small product run hand assembled goods are the same and mostly these are at the top end of the market. Mechanical watches. Italian sports cars. Leica cameras. It's just part of the ownership experience with hand assembled goods. I have no idea why anyone would expect anything assembled by hand to be anything else. Price is not and has never been, an indicator of reliability or functionality.

Besides, it takes minutes to adjust a modern Leica RF. And it will drift, or be subject to a serious movement if you drop the camera. If you're in the middle of nowhere when it happens you can either sort it or whinge. Personally I think knowing how to adjust a RF should be a normal part of M ownership. My Leica bag has had a 2mm allen key and some thick wooden toothpicks in it for years. 

When a lens is out it's Leica being lazy. An RF is expected and common. Likely it left the factory fine and moved in shipping. You don't have to like it but I wouldn't return a camera because of it. A warranty centre should be able to sort it in a few days, if pushed.

Gordon

While annoying when it happens I agree with you. My first M11 was replaced but at this point I am used to it having owned every iteration of digital M. These latest variations are light years more reliable then my first M9. Leica does a good job replacing quickly or repairing, especially when buying a newly released product. If they weren’t so expedient I may feel differently. 
 

All that aside, what in the world are the toothpicks for?

Edited April 21, 2022 by dkmoore

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, dkmoore said:

...what in the world are the toothpicks for?

For loosening the red dot to get to the mechanism for adjusting vertical alignment. They help keep you from scratching the camera if you were to use tiny screwdrivers as some do.

Also you never know when you may need to pick food out of your teeth, so it's a win-win.

[hmzimelka]

Does one still need a special tool or modified driver to adjust the vertical adjuster behind the red dot?
Or are Leica using something simple like a 2 mm Allen?

If so, anyone have a link to making such a tool.

Edited April 21, 2022 by hmzimelka

[jdlaing]

7 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

Does one still need a special tool or modified driver to adjust the vertical adjuster behind the red dot?
Or are Leica using something simple like a 2 mm Allen?

If so, anyone have a link to making such a tool.

No special tool.

[hmzimelka]

2 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

No special tool.

Ok,thanks. So what tool does one need? 2mm allen?

[jdlaing]

1 minute ago, hmzimelka said:

Ok,thanks. So what tool does one need? 2mm allen?

It’s an Allen, or hex, wrench but I forget the size. 2mm sounds like the one.

[hmzimelka]

9 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

It’s an Allen, or hex, wrench but I forget the size. 2mm sounds like the one.

Much appreciated! 

The 2mm allen is permanently at home in my bag anyways

[hdmesa]

Update: Reseller has a new black M11 coming on Monday and has offered to swap it for my defective silver one. I'm going to roll the dice one more time.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

18 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

Does one still need a special tool or modified driver to adjust the vertical adjuster behind the red dot?
Or are Leica using something simple like a 2 mm Allen?

If so, anyone have a link to making such a tool.

Since the M type 240 it's been a 2mm allen key for both horizontal and vertical adjustment. Before that the vertical required a special tool (M8 and M9).

Gordon

[Mr.Prime]

Why not keep the red dot safely at home in a ziplock for when you re sell the camera one day, and otherwise leave the screw accessible all the time when you are out in the field

Edited April 21, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[jdlaing]

17 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

Why not keep the red dot safely at home in a ziplock for when you re sell the camera one day, and otherwise leave the screw accessible all the time when you are out in the field

Because you’ll get a bunch of dust inside the rangefinder mechanism. Think.

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[Mr.Prime]

1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

 Think.

Thank you very much for that advice.