M11 Highlight-Weigted metering

[hdmesa]

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56 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

Agreed.

I prefer centred weighted metering in the sense that it wants to expose to mid-grey. Which, in some situations, is more reliably predictable so to speak since it has no complicated programmed logic. In the same way, so is spot metering. It does need a little more thinking and experience to use but can quickly become automatic muscle memory. I'm constantly dealing in Exp Compensation with the rear dial and its just feels like second nature. 

Centre weighted metering on the M11 feels rather predictable, and its a great fall back. Firmware 1.4.0.0 seems to have made Multi-Segment more reliable too. I'm eager to give that another try.

Multi-Segment metering is often the easiest way especially when things are fast paced. It becomes especially nice if the manufacturer manages to make it reliable and fairly consistent across its cameras. For me, Nikon did this well in their D series cameras. Less so with their mirrorless. 

 

Multi-field does seem pretty good now, and it seems that all they did to Highlight-weighted was reduce the Multifield exposure by 1/3 to 1/2 stop plus increase the sensitivity and/or sampling rate (hence the flickering).

Currently I use Center-weighted as the best way to protect the highlights and Multifield +1/2 stop as a makeshift ETTR mode.

[hmzimelka]

21 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Multi-field does seem pretty good now, and it seems that all they did to Highlight-weighted was reduce the Multifield exposure by 1/3 to 1/2 stop plus increase the sensitivity and/or sampling rate (hence the flickering).

Currently I use Center-weighted as the best way to protect the highlights and Multifield +1/2 stop as a makeshift ETTR mode.

I'm going to keep an eye out for that flickering and see if its any worse than before... 

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[hdmesa]

Update from Leica on the flicking issue when using Highlight-weighted metering with Exposure Preview:

That combination does cause problems (it did so on the previous firmware too).
I saw the ticket in our database, and we are working on it.
I do not yet have an eta for a fix though.

[hdmesa]

9 hours ago, Summilux-asph said:

I mean. Both things are correct technically. When I say “center weighted” I mean yes, the shutter blade metering. 

I’m sure sensor metering is much more reliable. That’s all I had before Leica. I could switch on the fly. Taking a photo of someone backlit? Hit the button go to Spot meter done. 

But having to do it the way it says on the instructions “mostly center weighted” taught me a lot about taking better photos and depend less on automation.
 

It’s the constant manipulation of the Leica M to get what you want that makes it so addictive to use. If you make the Leica M too easy to use then it loses the charm for me at least.    

 

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Makes sense, thanks. It's just on the M11 there is no such thing as Center-weighted metering off the shutter blades – it's only off the sensor now even with the rangefinder. I know you meant in general with M bodies, but just wanted to mention it since this is an M11-specific thread and subforum.

[hdmesa]

5 minutes ago, Summilux-asph said:

Yea. So the M11 just works like any mirrorless camera. When you turn it on the shutter opens. The opposite of the other M’s because the metering is being done reading the light off the shutter blades. Also the shutter blades in the M11 are like other mirrorless cameras so they’re all black instead of those Gray shutter blades we have in the other M’s. 
 

But in the M11, the blades still close when you turn off the camera correct? 

Yes they close on power-off or in sleep mode. And they have to open on power-on or wake from sleep.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Here are examples where highlight measurement in 1.4 did well:

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[hwashcraft]

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One of the advantages of simple spot, or simple average, metering systems is that you know what they are doing and can compensate through experience.  Once you turn on the "smarter" exposure systems, it becomes very difficult to adjust exposure.  I used spot metering when I shot 4x5 and average when I shot 35 mm.   I was rarely in a hurry with 4 x 5, so I had time to meter multiple areas.  With 35mm I could guess a reasonable adjustment considering the contrast in the subjed.

 

I am just beginning to work with the M11 (had a M10r)  and just loaded the firmware that says it "improves" highlight metering.  We will see.  However, my experience is that it is very easy to blow out the highlights in multi-field metering if the contrast is high.

[DenverSteve]

On 4/9/2022 at 5:05 PM, Ktsa5239 said:

From my tests, it seems to work on bright sky type landscape scenes but fails for more complicated scenes like indoors with a bright window. 

Unfortunately, an interior room with illuminated exterior window is too much dynamic range for a camera.  Either put the window to your back, pull the shades or use a flash to fill the room to balance the exterior light.  It's not the cameras problem.  

[DenverSteve]

On 5/19/2022 at 4:50 AM, LEGEND said:

Histogram displayed in the rangefinder actually would be cool and very useful.
At least to me as I got so use't it when I was shooting Leica SL cameras, all of them.
 

Then it would be an EVF, not an optical rangefinder.  If you have the Visoflex 2, that's exactly what you get.  Leica has all these tools. 

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, DenverSteve said:

On 4/9/2022 at 7:05 PM, Ktsa5239 said:

From my tests, it seems to work on bright sky type landscape scenes but fails for more complicated scenes like indoors with a bright window. 

Unfortunately, an interior room with illuminated exterior window is too much dynamic range for a camera.  Either put the window to your back, pull the shades or use a flash to fill the room to balance the exterior light.  It's not the cameras problem.  

or just wait for the light to change, at sunset you have about 5 min of good light with any camera. Even film.

[DenverSteve]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

or just wait for the light to change, at sunset you have about 5 min of good light with any camera. Even film.

Ding, ding, ding ...........

Edited November 19, 2022 by DenverSteve

[Ktsa5239]

5 hours ago, DenverSteve said:

Unfortunately, an interior room with illuminated exterior window is too much dynamic range for a camera.  Either put the window to your back, pull the shades or use a flash to fill the room to balance the exterior light.  It's not the cameras problem.  

I could also just manually expose and adjust depending on the situation.

but I was referring to the high-light metering mode not working the same way as the SL2. Wouldn’t it be better if it actually expose to protect highlights in the frame consistently no matter the scene? Otherwise the metering mode is irrelevant if I just wait for the light condition to change and so on. 

[DenverSteve]

1 minute ago, Ktsa5239 said:

I could also just manually expose and adjust depending on the situation.

but I was referring to the high-light metering mode not working the same way as the SL2. Wouldn’t it be better if it actually expose to protect highlights in the frame consistently no matter the scene? Otherwise the metering mode is irrelevant if I just wait for the light condition to change and so on. 

Then the shadows would be clipped and unrecoverable.  You could put ND sheets over the exterior of the windows to balance out the lighting, or as stated above, wait for the metered light outside to decrease and balance with the interior light.  Metering can't do it all. 

[LEGEND]

5 hours ago, DenverSteve said:

Then it would be an EVF, not an optical rangefinder.  If you have the Visoflex 2, that's exactly what you get.  Leica has all these tools. 

I know that...  
What I meant is something like a HUD, head-up display inside a rangefinder window.
But still it could be distracting for someone when composing the frame.
On the other side you can always turn it off if needed...  

Nikola
 

[DenverSteve]

3 minutes ago, LEGEND said:

I know that...  
What I meant is something like a HUD, head-up display inside a rangefinder window.
But still it could be distracting for someone when composing the frame.
On the other side you can always turn it off if needed...  

Nikola
 

The heads-up display is in the Visoflex.  It works great. 

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, Ktsa5239 said:

I could also just manually expose and adjust depending on the situation.

but I was referring to the high-light metering mode not working the same way as the SL2. Wouldn’t it be better if it actually expose to protect highlights in the frame consistently no matter the scene? Otherwise the metering mode is irrelevant if I just wait for the light condition to change and so on. 

Actually it does work quite well and very close to the SL2.

You can't judge from the JPG. the M 11 will expose the highlights to be recoverable in post every time for me. I have been using highlights metering for the last few months to my everyday setup. I works well.

Raw files from the SL2 have less recovery then M11, it is important to remember that the base ISO will work the best in both cameras.

I do shoot lots of interiors and I wish there are lens options for the M11, I prefer the color output and DR.

[LEGEND]

8 hours ago, DenverSteve said:

The heads-up display is in the Visoflex.  It works great. 

Exactly...
That is why I also have SL2-S... 
When “mirrorless“ then better real mirrorless...  

Nikola