M11 Highlight-Weigted metering

[hdmesa]

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On 5/17/2022 at 6:34 AM, augustwest100 said:

...On the SL2S it is sort of the opposite - often I felt the highlight priority on SL2S would severely darken an otherwise nicely metered shot just because of a bright light somewhere on the edge of the frame....

That's exactly how highlight metering is supposed to work. It was incorrectly done on the M11 – Leica is aware and working on a fix.

Think of highlight weighted metering (when done correctly) as an automatic spot meter that places the metering point over the brightest part of the frame (with the exception of small specular highlights, which are impossible to expose for most of the time).

[augustwest100]

That’s good to know. It’s pretty easy to recover details from the SL2S when you use highlight priority. Switching between SL2S and M can take a bit of adjusting, so it would be great if they have them work the same. You know you’re in trouble when you start looking for a histogram in the M’s optical viewfinder!

 

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[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, augustwest100 said:

That’s good to know. It’s pretty easy to recover details from the SL2S when you use highlight priority. Switching between SL2S and M can take a bit of adjusting, so it would be great if they have them work the same. You know you’re in trouble when you start looking for a histogram in the M’s optical viewfinder!

 

Since we now have off-the-sensor metering in rangefinder mode and highlight weighted metering, the current old-school meter in the histogram will be guaranteed not to ever blow the highlights, which is a real problem with all previous M cameras when using the rangefinder in difficult lighting situations.

It also looks like there is enough empty space left or right of the current red digit display in the rangefinder to add a rudimentary histogram. The lines would be illuminated same as the frame lines, and the red 1980s display lighting could illuminate the vertical bars as needed:

| I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I | 

An average exposure would look like:

| I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I | 

And the exposure would move on the histogram as the exposure changes: 

| I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I | 

The leftmost and rightmost bar of the histogram would be extra bright when illuminated and serve the same function as the flashing clipping warnings in the EVF/LCD (left for shadow clipping, right for highlight clipping).

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by hdmesa

[LEGEND]

10 hours ago, augustwest100 said:

That’s good to know. It’s pretty easy to recover details from the SL2S when you use highlight priority. Switching between SL2S and M can take a bit of adjusting, so it would be great if they have them work the same. You know you’re in trouble when you start looking for a histogram in the M’s optical viewfinder!

 

Histogram displayed in the rangefinder actually would be cool and very useful.
At least to me as I got so use't it when I was shooting Leica SL cameras, all of them.

I was always in M mode because I like to have full control over my exposure and 
slow approach in making pictures...

Before I transitioned to SL system I was using Leica M cameras and also in fully manual workflow.
SL spoiled me with the EVF, exposure preview and histogram. I always made the exposure looking
and judging the histogram and exposure preview. Just turn the shutter or aperture wheel left
or right to adjust the exposure, observe the histogram and don't let it go 100% to the right...

This way I managed to get right exposure to the 1/3 stop almost 95% of time. I got seldom 
clipped highlights with this method. SL2-S was especially good and successful in this...
To me this is the best way for getting right exposure when you use SL cameras in M mode and
also with manual lenses...  

Now owning and using the M11 I find myself often turning the LV on
to set the exposure with the method described before. I just check fast the histogram and if he shows
that the highlights are clipped, I then adjust shutter speed or aperture accordingly.
I was never comfortable using camera in the aperture priority and with exposure compensation, don't know why...
Also somehow I don't trust highlight weighted metering or even multy-field... I know, it is stupid but I am used
to center weighted metering from shooting Leica M cameras before. I preferred this also with my SL cameras before.
I think I need to shoot with my M11 more to get to learn her inside out as I did with my SL cameras...

Histogram displayed inside the rangefinder could be only a benefit for a photographer and who don't need this 
it can be always turned off. 

As for problems with highlight weighted metering problem I am sure that Leica will fix this with next FW update...

I am not sure if I will purchase an EVF for my M11 because I wanted the rangefinder experience again but shooting 
with mirrorless and EVF have much benefits to ignore it... Perhaps I get me Visoflex 2 in the future but for now the 
rangefinder it is... 

I am sorry for this long post and bad English... I tried my best... 

Nikola

 

[augustwest100]

1 hour ago, LEGEND said:

Histogram displayed in the rangefinder actually would be cool and very useful.
At least to me as I got so use't it when I was shooting Leica SL cameras, all of them.

I was always in M mode because I like to have full control over my exposure and 
slow approach in making pictures...

Before I transitioned to SL system I was using Leica M cameras and also in fully manual workflow.
SL spoiled me with the EVF, exposure preview and histogram. I always made the exposure looking
and judging the histogram and exposure preview. Just turn the shutter or aperture wheel left
or right to adjust the exposure, observe the histogram and don't let it go 100% to the right...

This way I managed to get right exposure to the 1/3 stop almost 95% of time. I got seldom 
clipped highlights with this method. SL2-S was especially good and successful in this...
To me this is the best way for getting right exposure when you use SL cameras in M mode and
also with manual lenses...  

Now owning and using the M11 I find myself often turning the LV on
to set the exposure with the method described before. I just check fast the histogram and if he shows
that the highlights are clipped, I then adjust shutter speed or aperture accordingly.
I was never comfortable using camera in the aperture priority and with exposure compensation, don't know why...
Also somehow I don't trust highlight weighted metering or even multy-field... I know, it is stupid but I am used
to center weighted metering from shooting Leica M cameras before. I preferred this also with my SL cameras before.
I think I need to shoot with my M11 more to get to learn her inside out as I did with my SL cameras...

Histogram displayed inside the rangefinder could be only a benefit for a photographer and who don't need this 
it can be always turned off. 

As for problems with highlight weighted metering problem I am sure that Leica will fix this with next FW update...

I am not sure if I will purchase an EVF for my M11 because I wanted the rangefinder experience again but shooting 
with mirrorless and EVF have much benefits to ignore it... Perhaps I get me Visoflex 2 in the future but for now the 
rangefinder it is... 

I am sorry for this long post and bad English... I tried my best... 

Nikola

 

This makes perfect sense to me, and no apologies needed, English is pretty much my only language so you are way ahead of me in the communication department!

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, LEGEND said:

Histogram displayed in the rangefinder actually would be cool and very useful.
At least to me as I got so use't it when I was shooting Leica SL cameras, all of them.

I was always in M mode because I like to have full control over my exposure and 
slow approach in making pictures...

Before I transitioned to SL system I was using Leica M cameras and also in fully manual workflow.
SL spoiled me with the EVF, exposure preview and histogram. I always made the exposure looking
and judging the histogram and exposure preview. Just turn the shutter or aperture wheel left
or right to adjust the exposure, observe the histogram and don't let it go 100% to the right...

This way I managed to get right exposure to the 1/3 stop almost 95% of time. I got seldom 
clipped highlights with this method. SL2-S was especially good and successful in this...
To me this is the best way for getting right exposure when you use SL cameras in M mode and
also with manual lenses...  

Now owning and using the M11 I find myself often turning the LV on
to set the exposure with the method described before. I just check fast the histogram and if he shows
that the highlights are clipped, I then adjust shutter speed or aperture accordingly.
I was never comfortable using camera in the aperture priority and with exposure compensation, don't know why...
Also somehow I don't trust highlight weighted metering or even multy-field... I know, it is stupid but I am used
to center weighted metering from shooting Leica M cameras before. I preferred this also with my SL cameras before.
I think I need to shoot with my M11 more to get to learn her inside out as I did with my SL cameras...

Histogram displayed inside the rangefinder could be only a benefit for a photographer and who don't need this 
it can be always turned off. 

As for problems with highlight weighted metering problem I am sure that Leica will fix this with next FW update...

I am not sure if I will purchase an EVF for my M11 because I wanted the rangefinder experience again but shooting 
with mirrorless and EVF have much benefits to ignore it... Perhaps I get me Visoflex 2 in the future but for now the 
rangefinder it is... 

I am sorry for this long post and bad English... I tried my best... 

Nikola

 

Center-weighted metering is very accurate and consistent for what I shoot, and I also used it on my Canon and Fujifilm cameras. Sometimes the highlight weighted (on the SL2/-S where it works correctly) can’t be brought up far enough with exposure compensation, but center-weighted always seems to be very near where I want to end up. 

[tom0511]

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Years before the M11 came out I had the wish for a more sophisticated metering system. Specially with wide angle lenses, and with images in high contrast light (landscape with bright sky and darker forground) I found the M metering not accurate and reliable.

When shooting landscape with much sky I allways tried to turn the camera a little down when metering to get a mix of forground and sky. But this was trial and error.

So I either had to take a shot, check histogramm, correct, shoot the shot again. Or shoot rows with different exposure. Or dial in a little more minus exp compensation and then accept that quite some images were underexposed which can reduce dynamic range and increase noise in post.

I found to get better and more reliable exposure with other cameras (SL or S system for example, or Nikon or Canon).

So for me the new exp metering is maybe the biggest improvement of the M11. At the moment I use multi but not highlight weighted. I think both metering modes need some FW improvement, since I get occasional overexp. But once this bug is eliminated I am happy to have the new options.

In regards of histogramm in E-viewfinder... I dont need this. When I shoot with the EVF I feel I can judge exposure just based on what I see in the EFV and dont need an histogramm. And I want to see the subject and not graphs. But why not offer it as an option? (But then we want the menues to stay simple and slim in the M cameras) 

Edited May 20, 2022 by tom0511

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, tom0511 said:

...So for me the new exp metering is maybe the biggest improvement of the M11. At the moment I use multi but not highlight weighted. I think both metering modes need some FW improvement, since I get occasional overexp. But once this bug is eliminated I am happy to have the new options.

In regards of histogramm in E-viewfinder... I dont need this. When I shoot with the EVF I feel I can judge exposure just based on what I see in the EFV and dont need an histogramm. And I want to see the subject and not graphs. But why not offer it as an option? (But then we want the menues to stay simple and slim in the M cameras) 

The Ms do have a histogram that can show in the EVF/LCD, just not the rangefinder.

You should try Center-weighted metering on the M11 when using the rangefinder – for me it's more accurate and fooled less often than Multifield.

[IkarusJohn]

Like multi-field metering, highlight metering isn’t something I’d use.  Is it available on the M10-D in the latest firmware?

Coming to digital from slides (Velvia and Kodachrome), I was comfortable with the limited dynamic range, and the importance of protecting highlights.  Reflective metering is always a compromise, in my view.  But, if you’re not carrying a light meter, then a centre-weighted meter, with EV -2/3 is very reliable, provided you know what the meter is telling you.  It is consistent, where multi-metering isn’t.  We have bright sun here, and I like clouds in my images, so I do tend to meter off them.

A useful, but unlikely development would be for a camera to take ambient light readings, resulting in an EV value for the chosen scene, which you then adjust in manual mode for your chosen subject (exposure simulation and histogram in the SL is fabulous for this).  My M-A and SWC force me to think in those terms - I gave up on 1° spot meters and zone systems long ago (the Gossen zone calculator was a very cool feature, though.  I lusted after the Hasselblad H system when it was released, but thankfully couldn’t afford it.

I don’t mean to be dismissive.  It just seems to me that there are some things I wish to control - lens selection, composition, focus and expsoure.  The only “Auto” setting I use is ISO on the Monochrom …

[hdmesa]

5 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

...

I don’t mean to be dismissive.  It just seems to me that there are some things I wish to control - lens selection, composition, focus and expsoure.  The only “Auto” setting I use is ISO on the Monochrom …

What exactly where you worried about sounding dismissive of? I don't see a conflict between a chosen metering method and having control in full manual.

[IkarusJohn]

49 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

What exactly where you worried about sounding dismissive of? I don't see a conflict between a chosen metering method and having control in full manual.

The camera making decisions for me.  Please don’t put words into my mouth, or colour them with your preferred position - I have never been “dismissive”.  My position has always been that these settings aren’t for me.  My point, if you wish to actually respond to it, is that I am generally not comfortable with increased automation in my cameras.  That is what drew me to Leica in the first place (M9 in 2010), and my history of manual cameras (FMs, 503cx etc).

In photography, there are a number of things I wish to control - exposure is towards the top of that list (with focus), white balance towards the bottom.

[hdmesa]

42 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

The camera making decisions for me.  Please don’t put words into my mouth, or colour them with your preferred position - I have never been “dismissive”.  My position has always been that these settings aren’t for me.  My point, if you wish to actually respond to it, is that I am generally not comfortable with increased automation in my cameras.  That is what drew me to Leica in the first place (M9 in 2010), and my history of manual cameras (FMs, 503cx etc).

In photography, there are a number of things I wish to control - exposure is towards the top of that list (with focus), white balance towards the bottom.

Easy there. I didn't say you were being dismissive, I was asking why you didn't want to be interpreted as being dismissive (per what you said below). I didn't see a conflict between your position and the current discussion on metering accuracy. Were you saying you don't use a meter at all? 

6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

...

I don’t mean to be dismissive.  It just seems...

 

[tom0511]

Am 20.5.2022 um 17:02 schrieb hdmesa:

The Ms do have a histogram that can show in the EVF/LCD, just not the rangefinder.

You should try Center-weighted metering on the M11 when using the rangefinder – for me it's more accurate and fooled less often than Multifield.

I will try that option as well. I didn't expect center weighted to be any better than what we had in previous M cameras, but I should give it a try,

So far multi is sometimes off, bot very often it seems to work quite good.

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

On 5/21/2022 at 3:34 PM, IkarusJohn said:

Like multi-field metering, highlight metering isn’t something I’d use.  Is it available on the M10-D in the latest firmware?

Absolutely not.  I'm currently using matrix metering on my M11, with the new E-viewfinder to let me see a histogram, but with an M10-D, I  use the old fashioned center-weighted  and point the camera at the appropriate part of the scene to fix the exposure. I have tried the highlight weighted metering, but it is a work in progress, and should be left alone for now.

Edited May 23, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick

[hdmesa]

Update based on new Highlight-weighted metering behavior in FW 1.4.0.0 released today:

Highlight metering is slightly improved, resulting in a small reduction in exposure versus multi field.

Tested at fixed ISO and aperture: Highlight-weighted did 1/250 sec. and Multi did 1/200 sec. Another scene with bright areas much further off to the side to try and fool the meter: Highlight did 1/45 sec., and Multi did 1/40 sec. 

The second scenario left blown highlights with both metering modes. The logic behind the highlight-weighted meter still seems to be set up to look for zones of priority just like multifield. By doing this, it will miss an exposure spike at the far right of the histogram. IMO, the Highlight-weighted metering logic should only be looking at the histogram and exposing so as to not allow any significant data spike from clipping off the right side of the histogram. That said, I think this is now working like it is on the SL2-S at least.

Edit to say: in many situations it looks like Center-weighted still gives the lowest exposure (as long as the brightest highlights are not confined to a small area in a corner of the frame). I think I would consider 1.4.0.0’s Highlight-weighted metering to almost be an ETTR meter (expose to the right as closely as possible without blowing highlights in the DNG).

Edited May 25, 2022 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

Update: Highlight-weighted meter in 1.4.0.0 is now completely useless for me when using Live View combined with Exposure Preview and any auto mode (Auto ISO and/or Auto Shutter) due to a new issue – it rapidly and abruptly alternates between different exposures in high-contrast lighting when moving the frame around, causing the screen to appear to flicker. Much too sensitive to changes in lighting.

Back to Center-weighted for me.

Edited May 25, 2022 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

32 minutes ago, Summilux-asph said:

The best and most consistently predictable. The default for M until the M11. Seems like it’s back to it anyway 😀 …

This was the main selling point of the M11 is different metering modes while using the rangefinder. They need to get this sorted. 

At least Center-weighted is coming directly off the sensor on the M11 in rangefinder mode, so it’s way more accurate and consistent than the ancient meter in the M10 that took readings off the shutter blades when using the rangefinder.

Edited May 26, 2022 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

52 minutes ago, Summilux-asph said:

The best and most consistently predictable. The default for M until the M11. Seems like it’s back to it anyway 😀 …

This was the main selling point of the M11 is different metering modes while using the rangefinder. They need to get this sorted. 

Users who have experience with center-weighted metering and were happy with it before will continue to prefer center-weighted metering as that gives them predictable results.

Others will prefer multi-field metering, which was available only in LV in previous M cameras. 

I believe that most photographers prefer multi-field to center-weighted metering, as that gives them more reliable results. However, photographers who were forced to use center-weighted metering got used to it and may get more predictable results with center-weighted metering. 

Very few Sony, Nikon, and Canon owners prefer center-weighted to multi-field metering.

 

 

[hmzimelka]

17 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Users who have experience with center-weighted metering and were happy with it before will continue to prefer center-weighted metering as that gives them predictable results.

Others will prefer multi-field metering, which was available only in LV in previous M cameras. 

I believe that most photographers prefer multi-field to center-weighted metering, as that gives them more reliable results. However, photographers who were forced to use center-weighted metering got used to it and may get more predictable results with center-weighted metering. 

Very few Sony, Nikon, and Canon owners prefer center-weighted to multi-field metering.

 

 

Agreed.

I prefer centred weighted metering in the sense that it wants to expose to mid-grey. Which, in some situations, is more reliably predictable so to speak since it has no complicated programmed logic. In the same way, so is spot metering. It does need a little more thinking and experience to use but can quickly become automatic muscle memory. I'm constantly dealing in Exp Compensation with the rear dial and its just feels like second nature. 

Centre weighted metering on the M11 feels rather predictable, and its a great fall back. Firmware 1.4.0.0 seems to have made Multi-Segment more reliable too. I'm eager to give that another try.

Multi-Segment metering is often the easiest way especially when things are fast paced. It becomes especially nice if the manufacturer manages to make it reliable and fairly consistent across its cameras. For me, Nikon did this well in their D series cameras. Less so with their mirrorless. 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by hmzimelka

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[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Users who have experience with center-weighted metering and were happy with it before will continue to prefer center-weighted metering as that gives them predictable results.

Others will prefer multi-field metering, which was available only in LV in previous M cameras. 

I believe that most photographers prefer multi-field to center-weighted metering, as that gives them more reliable results. However, photographers who were forced to use center-weighted metering got used to it and may get more predictable results with center-weighted metering. 

Very few Sony, Nikon, and Canon owners prefer center-weighted to multi-field metering.

 

 

Are you confusing sensor-based Center-weighted with the shutter-blade metering on previous Ms? The shutter-blade average metering was a complete mess in difficult light, but Center-weighted in LV (or now in any mode on the M11) is extremely reliable and extremely accurate, at least for what I shoot.

Edited May 26, 2022 by hdmesa