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ROM R-lenses on EXTENDER APO 1.4 and NON-ROM APO 2 - Is that possible?


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Hello,

ROM lenses are not allowed to be connected to CAM R-Mounts (1,2,3). I'm not sure if this applies to the extenders as well. There is no ROM version of the 1.4x extender (APO EXTENDER 1.4). Is it possible to connect CAM AND ROM lenses to this extender? Or only CAM?

At Thorsten Overgaard's website I found the best list, which lenses can be used with these two extenders. But also this list doesn't tell me if this also works with ROM lenses on non ROM extenders.

And one more thing: Apparently you can use even more R-lenses on these extenders than those officially listed by LEICA. The extender manuals aren't much help either, some of them were printed when some of the interesting lenses weren't made yet. Does anyone here also operate lenses with good success on these extenders that are not on the list?

Can anyone help me out there? Or is there perhaps a thread I've overlooked here in the forum on this subject?

Thanks a lot already . . .

Peter

www.PetersPhotoChannel.com

Edited by PetersPhotoChannel
Falsche Sprache, deutsch statt englisch
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  • PetersPhotoChannel changed the title to ROM R-lenses on EXTENDER APO 1.4 and NON-ROM APO 2 - Is that possible?

Peter,

You may also want to post your question in the German language part of this forum, there are a lot of knowledgeable guys around.

As far as I know, the problem with ROM lenses is that their ROM is located at a position where one of the two cams of the Leicaflex cameras sits. Which means that if you mount a ROM lens to a non-ROM extender having all three cams, one of the two Leicaflex cams will interfere with the ROM on the ROM lens. If, however, the non-ROM extender in an R-only extender, which means it only has one cam for the R lenses, then there is no problem at all, as you can then mount both ROM lenses and non-ROM R-lenses to your non-ROM extender. Further, it is also possible to mount both ROM and non-ROM lenses to a ROM extender. It is, however, not possible to mount a so-called 3-cam lens, which has both the two Leicaflex cams as well as the R-cam, to a ROM extender, as one of the Leicaflex cams of the lens will interfere with the ROM, as explained above.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers,

Andreas

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Dear Andreas,

NON-ROM and CAM (1,2,3) were synonyms for me, it seems I was wrong there:

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According to this I cannot mount my ROM R lenses to both the 1.4 and 2.0 APO EXTENDER's.

I'll have to buy the 2.0 APO ROM EXTENDER to use my ROM-R lenses with it and will have no 1.4 ROM EXTENDER available.

Is that right like this?

Regards

Peter

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vor einer Stunde schrieb PetersPhotoChannel:

According to this I cannot mount my ROM R lenses to both the 1.4 and 2.0 APO EXTENDER's.

I don't think so. It depends on the type of non-ROM extender you have. Do your non-ROM extenders have all 3 cams? If so, you are correct. However, I believe there are non-ROM extenders which have only the R-cam. If you have such an extender (it might say "R-only" on its body), your ROM lenses will fit just fine (obviously, you won't get ROM functionality if the extender is non-ROM).

Regarding the 1.4 extender, things are a little more difficult. This extender only works with certain lenses, as it protrudes physically at one end, which does not allow to mount that extender to certain lenses (e.g. the Macro-Elmarit-R 2.8/100), regardless of the ROM/non-ROM issue.

Edit: I have just googled a bit. If your extender(s) says "Extender R", then you should be good, as those extenders have only the R-cam, and lack the interfering Leicaflex cams. You will then be able to mount your ROM lenses without problems (except for the physical issue mentioned above with regard to the 1.4 extender)

Best,

Andreas

Edited by wizard
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I will make a photo of the extender and post it here - I’m relatively new to the LEICA-R universe and would’nt know how to distinguish the different CAM versions. 
 

As to what lenses can be used with the extenders here are the official LEICA listings:

The 2x APO-Extender (model 11 262)
This one exists with and without ROM contacts and matches the following lenses:
50mm f1.4. 50mm f2.0, 60mm f2.8, 80mm f/1.4, 90mm f2.0 APO ASPH, 100mm f2.8 APO, 180mm f2.0 APO, 180mm f2.8 APO, 280mm f2.8 APO, 280mm f4.0 APO, 400mm f2.8 APO, 400mm f4.0 APO, 560mm f4.0 APO, 560mm f5.6 APO, 800mm f5.6 APO and 28-90mm f2.8-4.5, 35-70mm f4.0, 70-180mm f2.8 APO, 80-200mm f4.0 and 105-280mm f2.4).

 

The 1.4x APO-Extender (model 11 249)
This one exists only without ROM  contacts. To be used with:
180mm f2.0 APO, 180mm f2.8 APO, 280mm f2.8 APO, 280mm f4.0 APO, 400mm f2.8 APO, 400mm f4.0 APO, 560mm f4.0 APO, 560mm f5.6 APO, 800mm f5.6 APO 28-90mm f2.8-4.5 and 105-280mm f/4.2.

I have heard though that other lenses could be added to that list, as these lists were published befor the last LEICA-R lenses were released.

Peter

PetersPhotoChannel.com

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I use without any problems on my M10, my SL and my M10R a ROM APO Elmarit 180 on a Non-ROM APO Extender 2.0. I guess this falsifies some of the things said or implied by the above schedules. Given the fact that it’s common sense that auto-focus and other auto’s like flash dedication won’t work. 

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I have done some research and the result is, that LEICA recommends not to use ROM lenses on any NON-ROM tools.

Here's what they write officially about the LEICA R adapter L, which is ROM:

"COMPATIBLE LENSES (same as for Leica R8 & Leica R9)
All Leica R lenses with contact strips are compatible, as are all lenses available for the Leica R models since 1976. Both apply in principle to joint use with appropriately
equipped Leica R lens accessories, such as extender and macro adapter (subject to
any lens-specific restrictions, please refer to the relevant lens or accessory instruction
for details on this.) However, Leica single-lens reflex lenses manufactured before
1976 (without R step) must not be used because they may damage this adapter."

So if you have NON-ROM lenses (1,2,3 CAM), don't use them on the R adapter L or on the 2x ROM APO EXTENDER.
If you do, you might run into problems like the ones published in this thread (click on it):

And if you have ROM lenses do only use them on ROM tools - if you want to play it safe . . .

As for which cameras are compatible with CAM or ROM lenses scroll further up in this thread. So, if you want to be safe, follow the rules.
Some LEICA users have posted here that they disregard these rules and that they have no problems in crossing over CAM and ROM.

But some posts here in the forum suggest that you might damage your equipment doing so.

It's everybodys choice . . .

Regards

Peter

 

 

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1 hour ago, PetersPhotoChannel said:

COMPATIBLE LENSES (same as for Leica R8 & Leica R9)
All Leica R lenses with contact strips are compatible, as are all lenses available for the Leica R models since 1976. Both apply in principle to joint use with appropriately

 

1 hour ago, PetersPhotoChannel said:

And if you have ROM lenses do only use them on ROM tools - if you want to play it safe . . .

You are making it too complicated. Just watch out with lenses before 1976. Leica does not say that ROM lenses are at risk in use with R bodies from 1976 and younger, or vice versa. There is nothing unsafe in that. You just cannot use dedicated flash and some other stuff on your R8 or R9 if you have no ROM contacts.

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You are reading more into what Leica are saying than they actually R. Certainly 3 cam or third cam (R cam only) lenses should be OK on ROM extenders or devices; indeed the ROM 2X extender has a linkage to relay the R cam position to the camera. Likewise ROM lenses are OK on R3 to R7. There is one idiosyncracy though, that is well known. If you have a ROM extender attached to an R8 or R9, and use a three cam or R cam lens, you won't get the aperture information relayed to the camera. It's as if the camera defaults to expecting the information via the ROM microprocessor on the extender. If you use it un an R3 to R7 it is OK.

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7 hours ago, PetersPhotoChannel said:

As for which cameras are compatible with CAM or ROM lenses scroll further up in this thread. So, if you want to be safe, follow the rules.
Some LEICA users have posted here that they disregard these rules and that they have no problems in crossing over CAM and ROM.

But some posts here in the forum suggest that you might damage your equipment doing so.

Hi Peter,

You referred to my post regarding the “strange” behaviour of a L to R adapter.  Drawing the conclusion that it is unsafe to mix CAM and ROM equipment is a far stretch from what I was trying to explain.  Also you state that in order to be safe we must follow “the rules”, they are however not clear to me at the moment.  Leica never said a ROM lens designed after 1976 would damage anything.  Leica only told me in a support related message the design of the L to R adapter can cause a “short circuit” resulting at f 5.6 that a SL2 believes that a unrecognised lens is mounted.  A short circuit is something that also occurs when you flip a wall switch to turn on the light. This not necessarily damages the light bulb (or the camera in this case )

Now I am with you that the whole ROM and CAM compatibility still is an issue, even in 2022.  As it seems that Leica - although they are aware of it - introduce new equipment to the market like the L to R adapter that still does not handle this thing of the past very well. 
 

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10 hours ago, otto.f said:

But only because of that and nothing else. It wasn’t an issue before the SL2 came out

True.  I was indeed only referring to the L to R to make my point that when you want to make things of the past compatible with things of today you should not have to resort to alter and permanently make a CAM lens incompatible with legacy R bodies, to be able to make it work on an adapter and modern SL.  That was what Leica suggested me remove one of the CAMs of all my non ROM R lenses to make it work on a very recently introduced “adapter”. 

A simple switch on the outside of that already utterly expensive L to R adapter labelled “CAM - ROM” and which in CAM mode cuts the internal electronics would be a smart and cheap solution to make almost all R lenses introduced after 1976 to work on an SL.  A statement they make on their website, which is in reality only partially true. 
 

Sorry for hijacking this thread.

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I have written to LEICA now, asking them to emit an official document with all the information needed. This thread shows that there is a lot of misinformation around and that some people even damage their equipment or get malfunctions using non compatible parts.

There`s even a thread about this here in the forum. In this thread this was posted by Stef63:

Am 16.3.2022 um 13:23 schrieb Stef63:

So I got a response back from Leica.

It basically confirms that one of the CAM levers of non ROM R lenses causes a short circuit at a certain angle, resulting in "misbehavior" of the camera.  They state that non ROM lenses are serviceable by removing small spacers from the inside to give more distance between the electric contacts and the curved CAM.  However, this would make the adapted lens unusable on an R analog camera.

What the message from Leica does not tell is that the problem occurs only with certain R lenses or with all non ROM lenses.  My conclusion is that Leica knows about this issue already for some time and also that the published "compatibility" list or the statement on the R to L adapter product page "This solution is compatible with most lenses built as of 1976" should be taken with a big grain of salt, at least for the non ROM lenses.  

If you have these type of non ROM R lenses and want to buy a pricey Leica R to L adapter to use on an SL camera, always test the combination with all your R lenses before handing over your money.

Edited by PetersPhotoChannel
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A couple of minor points to clarify.  The 1.4 extender has a lens that sticks out towards the lens side and is only compatible with the longer focal lengths listed by Leica (and some newer versions of the same lenses).  For example,the APO 180mm f/2.8 has a deep barrel and no rear lens (regardless of focus) comes back far enough to interfere with the extender.  Many lower focal lengths have rear lenses that extrude past the mount, such that the 1.4 and the rear of the lens would bang into each other, even if it were possible to mount them together.

The 2.0 is compatible with just about every lens, except some of the older ones like the 21mm f/3.5 that the mirror has to be up to use.

Secondly, I have a few 3-cam only lenses (Elmarit Macro 60mm f/2.8 and the Elmarit 90mm f/2.8 v2) and they do work fine on R8/R9 and SL bodies.  I do not use the 2x with those lenses in part because I don’t think it makes sense to do so for such low primes, instead I would use the 80-200 f/4 or the 70-180 f/2.8 to cover those ranges, or the 180 primes.  I do think Leica intended the 2x ROM to work with longer focal length lenses and not the 28-90 range.  I also think that having two 2.0x extenders - one rom and one cam is a great compatibility feature, and designing one to mechanically work by converting cam movements to rom readings seems difficult in the amount of space and prone to failure.  There solution seemed to be offering a ROM upgrade to lenses.  

The M lenses have gone through the same changes and not every old M lens can be 6 bit coded, so not every lens can automatically have EXIF written to the digital bodies.

I do think a conceptual chart would be interesting. Nikon has manny of those related to interchangeable viewfinder screens to help pick the best pairings.

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You have to be a bit careful with regard to the 180/2.8 APO Elmarit R ROM. The earlier ones (even with a ROM chip) won't fit with the 1.4X extender, because of the distance that the front of the extender sticks out into the back of the lens. Near to the end of the production run of the lens, Leica changed the prescription slightly, changing the power of the rearmost element, and thereby being able to move its position forward within the lens body so that the 1.4X extender would then fit. This very latest (second ROM version) is  11357. If I recall correctly, the earlier version could be modified by Leica. (Of course, as has already been said, there is no ROM version of the 1.4X extender, so that the benefits of the ROM chip cannot be gained with this combination, even on an R8/9.)

 

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On 4/16/2022 at 4:07 PM, masjah said:

You have to be a bit careful with regard to the 180/2.8 APO Elmarit R ROM. The earlier ones (even with a ROM chip) won't fit with the 1.4X extender, because of the distance that the front of the extender sticks out into the back of the lens. Near to the end of the production run of the lens, Leica changed the prescription slightly, changing the power of the rearmost element, and thereby being able to move its position forward within the lens body so that the 1.4X extender would then fit. This very latest (second ROM version) is  11357. If I recall correctly, the earlier version could be modified by Leica. (Of course, as has already been said, there is no ROM version of the 1.4X extender, so that the benefits of the ROM chip cannot be gained with this combination, even on an R8/9.)

 

The original version of this (APO) lens is 11273. his is a ROM lens, as stated in the publicity brochure linked in the Forum Leica Wiki, but the Leica Wiki does not state that this is also a ROM lens.

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