Moving on with Q2 and a fp L?

[reinerv]

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I just sold my M240 and will not buy another M body. My eyes don't get better and I am not willing to pay the current prices. With my old Monochrome I did just one shot last year. SL 601 also sold, just too bulky even with M lenses.

Most used is the Q2, perfect camera for me. I also use a TL2 with the 55-135 zoom for bicycle tours.

But what to do now with my ten M lenses? One option I am considering is using the M 70 Summicron or 90 Macro Elmarit with the fp L to cover a focal range from 28 to 200mm together with the Q2. Would give me a powerful and relatively compact travel kit. Even an additional WATE would fit in my travel camera bag.
 
Another option is selling all the M lenses and get a Sigma 65/2 or a smaller Panasonic 85/1.8 together with a fp L - for the price of one M lens sold.

Appreciate your comments and recommendations.

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[nicci78]

CL + M-Adapter-L : 1/3 price 2/3 weight 9/10 IQ of M10. 
However CL IQ > M typ 240 in every regards : dynamic range, high ISO, colours. 

sigma fp and fp L are quite bad due to electronic shutter only. 
Take into account that you won’t be able to take any photos at all in several indoor places. Due to LED flickering. And long focal and moderately fast moving subject will be a no go due to rolling shutter : especially with fp L. 

fp and fp L are secondary cameras at best  

 

CL is still the best for compact M combo with EVF  

One caveat : forget ultra wide angle. Even Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21 will become 24-28-32mm only. 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by nicci78

[nicci78]

 By the way : CL and Q2 are made for each other. Almost identical UI at 95% 

CL EVF is way better than Visoflex 2 for TL2. 

[reinerv]

Thanks nicci. My usual focal range for indoor is covered with the Q2 and very seldom I take pictures of faster moving objects.

The TL2 I have used with the 135 APO without viewfinder and without focus issues. The CL I would use than with the 55-135 zoom but I doubt this would be an improvement over TL2 with the zoom.

[nicci78]

CL has faster and more reliable focusing than TL2. 

And EVF will provide a more stable platform for 55-135mm. 

It is easier to focus M lenses with CL EVF

 

 

[nicci78]

44 minutes ago, reinerv said:

Thanks nicci. My usual focal range for indoor is covered with the Q2 and very seldom I take pictures of faster moving objects.

don't underestimate rolling shutter of electronic shutter and LED flickering. It is really bad and not recoverable in post processing. 

Moving objects = people walking.... not running.

Just try for yourself by renting fp and fp L. Or buy at a store with very nice return policy

[reinerv]

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Thanks again. One thing I am pretty clear about: I will not buy a CL to replace the TL2 to use it with the 55-135 zoom. I will consider the TL2 plus zoom as a travel option with the Q2.

 

vor 7 Stunden schrieb nicci78:

Just try for yourself by renting fp and fp L. Or buy at a store with very nice return policy

This I will do definitely, also to see how the functionality is with M lenses (e. g. auto magnification, focus peaking).

[BernardC]

10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Take into account that you won’t be able to take any photos at all in several indoor places. Due to LED flickering. And long focal and moderately fast moving subject will be a no go due to rolling shutter : especially with fp L. 

I haven't found it to be that big an issue. You'll only see banding with low-quality LED fixtures, and it will be minimized at multiples of your local power grid frequency (50 or 60 hertz). For instance, in most of the Americas, parts of Japan, and other 60 cycle locations, you can shoot at 1/30, 1/60 or 1/125. Use 1/25, 1/50 and 1/100 instead for 50 Hz locales. High-quality LEDs put-out nearly continuous light, so maybe you should take an fp along when shopping for bulbs!

Rolling shutter effect on the fp L depends on crop factor: https://www.cined.com/sigma-fp-l-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/

At its best, it's similar to the Sony a1 and Canon R5: two of the top sports cameras on the market. The effect is lowest at 1.24x crop, and it gets bad between 1.3x and 1.75x crop. That's not something most people would use for stills. You can always crop later.

The problem with the fp/fp L, when used as a "walking around camera," is that it's a small brick, in terms of shape and heft. The CL and TL2 are much nicer to hand-hold.

[Chris W]

I'm currently testing my Sigma FP alongside my CL ahead of a project in Europe.

So far I  like the FP picture quality more than the CL. I'm using both M adapted and Sigma L mount lenses.

The main downside of the FP for me is the lack of viewfinder, and I'm not about to purchase the £599 EVF11. I have the Sigma loupe, but it's bulky.

I have used the FP for a couple of years and absolutely love the image quality. I don't shoot a lot indoors in artificial light, I don't shoot sport.

 

[reinerv]

Thanks Chris. When using M lenses, does the auto magnification kick in when you do manual focussing? And the fp does not read the 6bit information?

[Alan Friedman]

I've been down a similar path and have spent time with both the Fp and Fp-L. The Fp ethos is idiosyncratic in a manner that any Leica enthusiast can love and enjoy. The concept is minimalist. You add and adapt to gain the refinements you require. A handgrip is a needed and easy addition. The EVF or OVF is more complicated... very important in sunlight, it works well but is costly and remains an add-on which impacts the portability and beauty of the camera. Electronic shutter is difficult indoors in artificial light. The adaptability vs. limitations are well documented - how much they would impact your enjoyment of the camera is something you likely need to experience to decide.

My original Fp was purchased in response to the heft of the Leica SL 601 and I added the Fp-L + EVF as soon as it became available. I've enjoyed shooting with it, but the Q2M has been the transformative camera for me. I traded the original Fp (with Leica rebate) and the SL towards the purchase of SL2-S. These two cameras are good stablemates and well suited to my needs - they share batteries, menus, operate similarly work well in almost any light. I have adapters to enable mounting every lens I own on L-mount. I've kept the Fp-L for outdoor shooting where color and resolution might require it, and the sigma dg dn lenses I've acquired in case I drift back to an interest in auto-focus. (I haven't found the hybrid auto-focus system on the Fp-L to be appreciably improved over the other L-mount auto-focus systems.)

The Q2 and Fp-L would have some overlap. The Q2M adds another level of separation that makes having both work for me. You might consider sitting tight with your M lens collection for an Fp-L with integrated EVF or next generation Leica L-mount camera. Or have another look at the SL2-S, which has a lot of advantages over the original SL.

9 minutes ago, reinerv said:

... When using M lenses, does the auto magnification kick in when you do manual focussing? And the fp does not read the 6bit information?

Magnification with manual focus lenses is engaged manually on the Fp. I can't remember if M-lens coding is transmitted - I have only one M lens that is coded. It does not have the M/R lens library that is available on the Leica SL series. 

 

 

 

[Chris W]

I have the Sigma loupe on my FP. With focus peaking I can get focus on my M lenses quite easily. Obviously auto focus on the excellent Sigma L mount lenses is fast and accurate.

The CL is a much easier to use, 'sorted' camera. Smaller and lighter than the FP.

As I said, testing them side by side, I'm still preferring the images from the FP.

[reinerv]

Thanks Alan and Chris.

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, reinerv said:

When using M lenses, does the auto magnification kick in when you do manual focussing? And the fp does not read the 6bit information?

There's a button on the back of the fp that magnifies the view. It's within reach of my thumb, so I use it without consciously looking for it.

There is some built-in functionality to correct colour cast and vignetting for M lenses, but I've have not used it because it doesn't correct for poor definition in the corners. I use 6-bit M lenses on the SL instead.

[colonel]

Whilst the CL is a nice camera it can't compete with a FF on IQ and misses out on some serious new technology, particularly ISS. Personally I thought the 240 was better. I would recommend the S5. It's IQ is breathtaking and with a few sigma and Panasonic primes you are done

 

 

 

[reinerv]

vor einer Stunde schrieb colonel:

…and with a few sigma and Panasonic primes…

 

 

 

That‘s what I don’t want. My idea is to adopt the Q2 concept - one lens and crop - for the focal range above 75mm. I could do this with the SL2 or S1R as well, but much larger than the fp L.

[colonel]

2 hours ago, reinerv said:

That‘s what I don’t want. My idea is to adopt the Q2 concept - one lens and crop - for the focal range above 75mm. I could do this with the SL2 or S1R as well, but much larger than the fp L.

So get the S5 with the sigma or Panasonic 35mm or 24mm. 

The fpl has no image stabilization and once you add the viewfinder it's not small anymore

[reinerv]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb colonel:

So get the S5 with the sigma or Panasonic 35mm or 24mm.

This is covered with my Q2, no reason to replace.

I agree that with the viewfinder my idea does not make sense.

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[MrSMW]

Lumix S5 + Sigma 65mm f2

Fantastic combo.

The S1R is even better IMO, but in order to keep a bit less size & weight, then the S5.

The advantage of the S1R is of course being 47mp, more scope for cropping either in camera toggling on/off APSC or even pixel to pixel crop mode, or just doing it in post.

Plus it has a dampened shutter so is less 'clicky' than the S5.

The S5 counters with a size and weight advantage.

I use the S1R, S1H and S5 with mainly Sigma but also native glass, so quite familiar with the system.

I was sent an FP-L by Sigma for trial but found it had too many compromises for me which were:

Loved the concept, but: needed a grip (even the small minimalist one), no tilt screen makes certain types of shots hard(er), e:shutter DID cause banding under certain lighting and I'd rather just shoot, not have to consider whether I might have banding or not, lack of 4k 60p was an issue for me as was single (no back up) card slot for pro use.

I can live with a couple of compromises as there is always going to be something, but the FP-L had too many for me.

Love the idea of a Q2, but again, too compromised for me.

My 'perfect' current combo is all things considered, the S1R with the Sigma 35mm f2 + the 65mm f2 plus add the new 20mm f2 into the equation and using in camera or in post cropping, it's a pretty compact smallest of bags system that could range from 20mm to easily over '100mm'.

[MrSMW]

One other thought and that is the recent f2.8 Sigma zoom lenses as in the 28-70mm and 18-50mm.

I have both and the slightly larger, but still very compact 28-70 is pretty damn good.

The 18-50mm is of course an APSC crop lens but in combo with the S1R is actually quite brilliant and is relatively compact package offering an equivalent focal length of 27-75mm from what is already a pretty higher megapixel camera.

I use both of these lenses as 'twin prime' options ie, ignore the middle ground of each and shoot them as 28 + 70 and 27 + 75 respectively.

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by MrSMW