Workflow for APS, split thread

[rob_w]

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13 hours ago, jaapv said:

What is wrong with running Topaz DeNoise AI over your image for 20 seconds as the last step in processing? (Topaz Sharpen AI would have eliminated your sharpness issues as well, a bit slower, but still well under one minute.)

Jaap, I for one would appreciate you starting a separate thread which describes your workflow when using the Topaz tools, and which tools you find helpful.  Unless you have already done this elsewhere, e.g. in the post-processing forum.  For example, I have never used TIFF in my workflow, always relying upon LR or similar library facilities, based directly on the RAW files, which makes me resist adding other processing step(s) with further tools.

Edited March 10, 2022 by rob_w

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, rob_w said:

Jaap, I for one would appreciate you starting a separate thread which describes your workflow when using the Topaz tools, and which tools you find helpful.  Unless you have already done this elsewhere, e.g. in the post-processing forum.  For example, I have never used TIFF in my workflow, always relying upon LR or similar library facilities, based directly on the RAW files, which makes me resist adding other processing step(s) with further tools.

I have, several times. However the Topaz suite is a simple PS plugin. TIF has nothing to do with it. 

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[LocalHero1953]

13 hours ago, jaapv said:

I have, several times. However the Topaz suite is a simple PS plugin. TIF has nothing to do with it. 

It is a LR plugin as well, and forces you into TIFF, rather than the normal non-destructive DNG edits. It's one of the downsides of Topaz, that used indiscriminately you end up with a massive increase in disk storage demand due to TIFF files next to DNG. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

Ah I see. I don’t use LR very much 95% PS for me. For LR style editing I use ACR. LR is my vehicle to sync iPhone images to my other devices through iCloud. Yes, TIFF files can eat loads of space. It  Can’t you use the standalone version of Topaz and”edit in”? 

[Boojay]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It is a LR plugin as well, and forces you into TIFF, rather than the normal non-destructive DNG edits. It's one of the downsides of Topaz, that used indiscriminately you end up with a massive increase in disk storage demand due to TIFF files next to DNG. 

and..if hardware is getting on a bit (as mine) slows down the process considerably😊.

 

[rob_w]

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It is a LR plugin as well, and forces you into TIFF, rather than the normal non-destructive DNG edits. It's one of the downsides of Topaz, that used indiscriminately you end up with a massive increase in disk storage demand due to TIFF files next to DNG. 

Yes, that's why I asked the question.  I don't want to divert this thread into a Topaz discussion.  But I don't want to add a TIFF version of every image that needs Topaz processing, as you say.

[LocalHero1953]

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Ah I see. I don’t use LR very much 95% PS for me. For LR style editing I use ACR. LR is my vehicle to sync iPhone images to my other devices through iCloud. Yes, TIFF files can eat loads of space. It  Can’t you use the standalone version of Topaz and”edit in”? 

I don't know what difference using the standalone version would make - or have I misunderstood you? You still end up with a TIFF, not a DNG+edits as in LR. 

The other problem is that, if you wish to retain your non-destructive editing history, then Topaz has to come at the end of your editing process: if you carry on editing the TIFF then, later, you can't adjust an edit made pre-Topaz.

I realise that PS can be used with Topaz as a non-destructive edit, but only at the cost of more layers which, I guess, would also increase the .psd file size massively.

I am an immense fan of Topaz, but I only use it on images that are being delivered to others or displayed/printed by me, AND which would benefit more from Topaz than LR's own noise reduction and sharpening.

Edited March 11, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

Well, my workflow is to use DeNoise (as needed) after I come out of ACR (Noise reduction off) and use sharpen at the very end of my workflow, after flattening the final image. If I expect to use the file in different versions (e.g. for print, fir LUF and for general web use, I do the required number of finalisations and save them separately as full JPGs. I only save PSD files for images if I have to interrupt my processing. In general, unless you are doing a denoise or sharpening on a selection (on a layer), sharpening should always be done at the very end of the process, right before saving.

I hardly notice the size, though, my data are on external disks, (16 TB should suffice ) the memory of my computer (0.5 TB) can handle anything I throw at it as it is not cluttered up.

[dewittehd]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It is a LR plugin as well, and forces you into TIFF, rather than the normal non-destructive DNG edits. It's one of the downsides of Topaz, that used indiscriminately you end up with a massive increase in disk storage demand due to TIFF files next to DNG. 

Sorry but my version of Topaz saves as PNG, DNG, TIFF or JPEG

[Kim Dahl]

Sorry what is the title of this thread ??  Topaz or APSC / CL?  I forgot 😉

[Foxtwo]

1 minute ago, Kim Dahl said:

Sorry what is the title of this thread ??  Topaz or APSC / CL?  I forgot 😉

“We’re Doomed and It’s the End of the World as We Know It Because of a Little Camera”

[LocalHero1953]

20 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

Sorry what is the title of this thread ??  Topaz or APSC / CL?  I forgot 😉

Let's hope the mods move the diversion into a new thread!

29 minutes ago, dewittehd said:

Sorry but my version of Topaz saves as PNG, DNG, TIFF or JPEG

Thank you, you're right, the standalone version does - I've learned something new. I wonder how a 'raw' file records the noise reduction while remaining raw.

I have just run a SL2-S DNG file (44Mb) through standalone Denoise. Unfortunately the saved 'DNG' file now occupies 143Mb, whereas the TIFF of the same image after editing in LR and running through Denoise as a plugin is 123Mb.

 

[jaapv]

And once you run it through the DNG converter?

[LocalHero1953]

47 minutes ago, jaapv said:

And once you run it through the DNG converter?

That 44Mb was the file after importing to LR (and after a number of edits). Is that what you mean?

Edited March 11, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[rob_w]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I wonder how a 'raw' file records the noise reduction while remaining raw.

Looks like it puts a TIFF or similar inside the DNG ...  I don't have Topaz to check what happens next but I am curious if that is where it ends up or there is another step to re-convert it.

BTW on the Topaz website I cannot see a 'standalone' version, just the three plug-ins.

[LocalHero1953]

Just now, rob_w said:

Looks like it puts a TIFF or similar inside the DNG ...  I don't have Topaz to check what happens next but I am curious if that is where it ends up or there is another step to re-convert it.

BTW on the Topaz website I cannot see a 'standalone' version, just the three plug-ins.

When I bought and downloaded it, it was installed as standalone versions with their own icons, as well as the plugins.

[dewittehd]

Before the Mods split this off to a different thread (which I think they should) I have to answer here.......

Depending on your editor any change either gets written in the file, e.g. destructible editing, or it gets recorded in a side-car. Unfortunately different editors or printing programs don't recognise most of the time other program's side-cars, so you have to convert, in which case you lose the non-destructible edit, or you keep two records, for me NEF or DNG and TIFF/JPEG

[rob_w]

Aha!  That makes sense of course.

I'm not sure, but I think Jaap means if you run the 143Mb DNG through DNG Converter does it change size.

Does the 143Mb DNG still behave like a non-destructive DNG series of edits, if you open it again in LR?

 

[adan]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I wonder how a 'raw' file records the noise reduction while remaining raw.

KInda off the topic of the fate of the CL - but .DNG is not exclusively a "raw" format.

My Vuescan will save a color 8-bit, not-Bayer-mosaic, linear-CCD-array, scan as a .DNG instead of a .TIFF or .JPG, if I choose (and I do).

My understanding (extremely simplified) in that .DNG is a variant of a TIFF (Tag Image File Format), in which the metadata "Tags" can "define" a variety of things, including "This is a Bayer image that must be demosaiced - this is a 16-bit file - a .jpg preview is included (or not) - the camera shot this ("As Shot") using WB 4875°K/tint -23, etc." - but do not have to.

The fact it is controlled with the metadata tags and is an flexible "open standard" does mean that the process of .DNG creation can been somewhat variable across software providers (Leica in-camera, Adobe, Topaz, Vuescan, etc.) The only consistency is that Adobe software should always read .DNGs.

See also dewittehd's comment above - a .DNG incorporates the processing slider settings (the .xmp data) right into the .DNG metadata with each save of changes. Whereas Adobe will create separate side-car .xmp files for formats like Nikon .NEF or Canon .CR2

From one of the links below: "DNG is an extension of TIFF/EP standard format and uses metadata significantly."

https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/file-types/image/comparison/dng-vs-raw.html

https://docs.fileformat.com/image/dng/

Additionally (to Jaap's point above) a .DNG file, once opened and saved by Adobe software (at least), will re-compress the data according to an Adobe algorithm. My Leica M digital files (originally compressed by a Leica algorithm in the camera) usually decrease in size by 5-10% or so the first time they are opened and saved by Adobe Camera Raw, as ACR recompresses them (one time) using Adobe's algorithm(s).

Edited March 11, 2022 by adan

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[LocalHero1953]

17 minutes ago, rob_w said:

Aha!  That makes sense of course.

I'm not sure, but I think Jaap means if you run the 143Mb DNG through DNG Converter does it change size.

Does the 143Mb DNG still behave like a non-destructive DNG series of edits, if you open it again in LR?

 

I have imported the DNG generated by Denoise back into LR, and played around with it. The file size has not changed (still around 143Mb).
I cannot make it look the same as the original edited DNG by 'Syncing' the edits with LR, even if I omit noise and sharpening settings. It is clearly being treated differently by LR - I cannot set a white balance to absolute degrees. The colour looks different - I assume it is using a different profile. I haven't investigated further - it is clearly not a process I would want to adopt.