orcinus Posted March 9, 2022 Share #1 Posted March 9, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Is anyone else experiencing more glow with Leica lenses on M11 than on other M bodies? Note that my only other digital M experience is with M240. Side by side, i'm noticing way more glow on M11 than M240, even accounting for the difference in pixel count and resolution. Curiously, this doesn't happen as much with Voigtlaender lenses. Granted, my N isn't big - two Leica lenses (cron 35 and elmarit 90) vs. three Voigtlaender lenses (15, nokton 40, nokton 75). The difference is much more apparent off center. It's not general loss of detail, but literal glow (loss of mid-frequency contrast). 35 cron also appears to have much worse edges/corners in general though. Sadly, i don't have any example shots at the moment as the ones i did weren't done in very controlled conditions so i deleted them. I'll make some side-by-side shots (nothing fancy, just off-the-balcony tripod shots) tomorrow, weather permitting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 9, 2022 Posted March 9, 2022 Hi orcinus, Take a look here Glow with Leica lenses. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
elmars Posted March 9, 2022 Share #2 Posted March 9, 2022 My observation is the opposite, if we talk about the same (which I am not sure about without photos). With the M10 I had rarely the problem that in camera reflection caused parts of low contrast (glow). With the M11 I never had such things so far. Perhaps the changes of in-body-architecture, that Leica did, was successful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 9, 2022 Share #3 Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) Potential for confusion in terminology here. "Glow" is often used to mean an aesthetically positive characteristic of Leica lenses. It sounds like you are referring to a sort of detrimental veiling flare? I agree, some photos would help to avoid misunderstanding. Edited March 9, 2022 by LocalHero1953 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcinus Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share #4 Posted March 9, 2022 I’ve never seen a difference between the two, to be honest (one is just acceptable, and other is undesirable, but to me, they’re the same aberration - namely spherical, with some flare). Images coming later today. Took them just now, but need a bit of off-work time to copy, sort and convert them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranciscoChung Posted March 9, 2022 Share #5 Posted March 9, 2022 My findings are oposite as well… even leica M10 has more glow than M11. I asked around & common thoughts are because M11 has more pixels and they are closer together, less glow is showing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirubadanieru Posted March 9, 2022 Share #6 Posted March 9, 2022 The only thing I see more with the M11 is CA on my 50mm lenses. For some reason, 35mm don’t exhibit any CA (as expected and as in other M bodies), but the 50mm do show a lot of CA (whereas other bodies don’t using the same lenses). This can be fixed in the future by a firmware update according to Leica customer support. In terms of glow…my pre-asph lenses glow on the M11 as they do on other M bodies…but do appear sharper, probably because of the higher resolution sensor? Not sure though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Brown Posted March 9, 2022 Share #7 Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) More megapixels - more obvious aberrations with corrections turned off. Higher megapixels show more because they make lens defects more obvious. Of course it is not just as black and white and as simple as that (one needs to observe closely to compare), but as a rule of thumb we can safely claim the above providing we observe the images at 100%. PS. This will be a fun thread to read. Popcorn ready. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 9, 2022 by Al Brown 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/330539-glow-with-leica-lenses/?do=findComment&comment=4397737'>More sharing options...
orcinus Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share #8 Posted March 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Al Brown said: More megapixels - more obvious aberrations with corrections turned off. That was my first thought too, but why not on Voigtlaenders? And why is the effect on the 35mm worse than the 90mm in the center (i'd expect the opposite)? In any case, outside photos canned, weather was not compliant (the lighting kept changing from shot to shot, making it hard to judge anything as the contrast of the scene was changing too fast). I'll try and do some boring resolution chart shots later tonight instead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcinus Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share #9 Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) Just a note for people waiting to turn this into a flame war... I'm not saying the results on the M11 are in any way unusable, or that the mentioned Leica lenses are horrible on it. What i'm trying to say is - it's behaving the opposite of what i'd expect based on what was written and based on logical assumptions. So i'd love to get to the bottom of this. (Wait for my Nokton f/1.0 to arrive to turn this into a flame war :P) Edited March 9, 2022 by orcinus Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcinus Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share #10 Posted March 10, 2022 (edited) Okay, here goes. First set, M11. f/2.0, f/2.8, f/4.0, f/8.0 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Second set, M240. f/2.0, f/2.8, f/4.0, f/8.0 Addendum - M11 vs. M240, f/2.0, M11 image downsampled to match M240 Methodology: - diffuse constant current LED lighting from above - both cameras mounted to tripod in the same spot - lens used: Summicron 35/2.0 Asph. - focusing using LV at full magnification, with extra manual bracket shots a smidge in the front and a smidge in the back just to confirm focus is true - i guarantee the focus is dead on, if you doubt it, you provide a way to ensure and prove it is - obviously this isn't astrophotography, so i can't do a bahtinov mask shot - ISO set to minimum native for both cameras (64 vs. 200) - automatic shutter speed, automatic white balance - processed in lightroom (no significant difference in CO22) - noise reduction (luma and chroma) set to 0 - sharpening set to 40 for both (shouldn't matter, as "veiling" is far higher pixel radius than lightroom's sharpening) - all images are 100% crops, center of frame, unresized, except the last composite where the M11 is downsampled to M240 size, as mentioned It's much more apparent at the edges of frame, but i couldn't find a good way to produce comparable photos, as LV on M240 does not allow punching into corners (or anywhere other than center, for that matter). I'll figure out something else (more resolution charts, or an outdoors, "real world" test). I can do some Nokton 40 comparisons too, likely weekend, got a bit of a tight work schedule these days (posting this at 5:30am and i still haven't gone to bed). Edited March 10, 2022 by orcinus Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Second set, M240. f/2.0, f/2.8, f/4.0, f/8.0 Addendum - M11 vs. M240, f/2.0, M11 image downsampled to match M240 Methodology: - diffuse constant current LED lighting from above - both cameras mounted to tripod in the same spot - lens used: Summicron 35/2.0 Asph. - focusing using LV at full magnification, with extra manual bracket shots a smidge in the front and a smidge in the back just to confirm focus is true - i guarantee the focus is dead on, if you doubt it, you provide a way to ensure and prove it is - obviously this isn't astrophotography, so i can't do a bahtinov mask shot - ISO set to minimum native for both cameras (64 vs. 200) - automatic shutter speed, automatic white balance - processed in lightroom (no significant difference in CO22) - noise reduction (luma and chroma) set to 0 - sharpening set to 40 for both (shouldn't matter, as "veiling" is far higher pixel radius than lightroom's sharpening) - all images are 100% crops, center of frame, unresized, except the last composite where the M11 is downsampled to M240 size, as mentioned It's much more apparent at the edges of frame, but i couldn't find a good way to produce comparable photos, as LV on M240 does not allow punching into corners (or anywhere other than center, for that matter). I'll figure out something else (more resolution charts, or an outdoors, "real world" test). I can do some Nokton 40 comparisons too, likely weekend, got a bit of a tight work schedule these days (posting this at 5:30am and i still haven't gone to bed). ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/330539-glow-with-leica-lenses/?do=findComment&comment=4398054'>More sharing options...
elmars Posted March 10, 2022 Share #11 Posted March 10, 2022 I don´t see anything what I would call glow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 10, 2022 Share #12 Posted March 10, 2022 Not sure what you were expecting. At f/4.0 (optimum aperture for the 35 Summicron ASPH): On the left-hand vertical pattern, the M11 is resolving distinct lines down to 6 (undefined units) at full resolution, whereas the M(240) loses all contrast by 4-4.5 (excessive moire, or lines become just a solid gray blur). From a different aspect, in the second-from-bottom test pattern "//////////" - the M240 starts to produce color moiré (red-blue) at about 4-5, while the M11 does not produce moiré until 8. Conclusion: 60 Mpixels has on the order of 1.5x more linear resolution ± compared to 24 Mpixels. Just as one would expect. Where is the "veiling" or "glow?" I don't see any. Do you mean that the "white" of the test chart is grayer with the M11 than with the M(240)? I note in your Methodology that you used Auto-Shutter. That means you metered using two different methods - the M11's meter, and the M240's meter. That is a deviation from proper experimental method - only change ONE (1) variable at a time. I might have other comments, but only once I know exactly what problem you are seeing - because I'm not seeing anything troubling or unexpected. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Brown Posted March 10, 2022 Share #13 Posted March 10, 2022 13 hours ago, orcinus said: Wait for my Nokton f/1.0 to arrive to turn this into a flame war Please do not turn this into any flame war. It is a constructive debate, aiming to explain & help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmen Posted March 10, 2022 Share #14 Posted March 10, 2022 7 hours ago, orcinus said: (posting this at 5:30am and i still haven't gone to bed). No wonder you are seeing things. 🙄 Apologies. Really couldn’t resist. Please do point out where you see glow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted March 10, 2022 Share #15 Posted March 10, 2022 Are you referring to an effect like anything shown here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_aberration#/media/File:Spherical-aberration-disk.jpg or a spread of bright highlights into adjacent dark areas (flare due to uncoated lenses or coating damage). If not can someone define exactly how the 'glow' manifests itself? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted March 10, 2022 Share #16 Posted March 10, 2022 (edited) I'd suggest that any effect you're sensing is probably more down to color science. I did a very quick, somewhat sloppy test of M11 vs. M10-R (auto-WB). What stands out to me is the difference in out of the box color with the M11 WB suffering, as has been previously noted, in this regard. If I see anything 'glow' related (again I didn't measure and align things precisely and of course as you'd expect, I managed to bump the tripod a bit when changing cameras), its that the M11 fall off is a perhaps a tick less smoother than that of the 10-R. didn't go through the hassle of normalizing the files sizes. Anyhoo, this is what I wound up with... F1.4 M11 ISO64, M10-R ISO100 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! F4.0: ...and I'd admit that the focus is slightly off on the M11 side (or at least the target is not quite as parallel to the camera). Should add the shots are SooC (raw) into LR with no adjustments done with the 50mm 'lux. Seems clear there is a marked difference in contrast and sharpening level straight out of the box (both easily dealt with in post assuming thats the way you wanted to go). Edited March 10, 2022 by Tailwagger 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! F4.0: ...and I'd admit that the focus is slightly off on the M11 side (or at least the target is not quite as parallel to the camera). Should add the shots are SooC (raw) into LR with no adjustments done with the 50mm 'lux. Seems clear there is a marked difference in contrast and sharpening level straight out of the box (both easily dealt with in post assuming thats the way you wanted to go). ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/330539-glow-with-leica-lenses/?do=findComment&comment=4398281'>More sharing options...
orcinus Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share #17 Posted March 10, 2022 9 hours ago, Al Brown said: Please do not turn this into any flame war. It is a constructive debate, aiming to explain & help. I was joking. I'm sure it will turn into a flame war at some point anyways. 10 hours ago, adan said: On the left-hand vertical pattern, the M11 is resolving distinct lines down to 6 (undefined units) at full resolution, whereas the M(240) loses all contrast by 4-4.5 (excessive moire, or lines become just a solid gray blur). I never said anything about resolution being lower. In fact, what i said was quite literally this, in the very first post: On 3/9/2022 at 3:54 AM, orcinus said: It's not general loss of detail, but literal glow (loss of mid-frequency contrast). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcinus Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share #18 Posted March 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Tailwagger said: I'd suggest that any effect you're sensing is probably more down to color science. I think you might be onto something here! I've played around some more, and if i swap between the built in profile and LR profile, it *appears* as if the mid-frequency contrast changes with it. I'll poke around some more AND hopefully do some outdoor shots too. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcinus Posted March 10, 2022 Author Share #19 Posted March 10, 2022 4 hours ago, pgk said: Are you referring to an effect like anything shown here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_aberration#/media/File:Spherical-aberration-disk.jpg or a spread of bright highlights into adjacent dark areas (flare due to uncoated lenses or coating damage). Yes, that's what i am referring to - a bleedover of highlights into shadows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 10, 2022 Share #20 Posted March 10, 2022 Would you really expect such a blurred result from the M11 at f/2 folks? I simply cannot believe that something did not go wrong in the lens, the camera or the focusing process. I have zero experience with the M11 though. I have just ordered one but i won't certainly keep it if it behaves this way unless it proves more competent at 36MP. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/330539-glow-with-leica-lenses/?do=findComment&comment=4398405'>More sharing options...
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