IkarusJohn Posted February 24, 2022 Share #41 Posted February 24, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 3 hours ago, SrMi said: Absolutely. Being interested in Thorsten's final opinion does not mean that it will influence my decision. For me, the interesting part is to see how he will come to a conclusion. It may help me understand the strange M11 animosity permeating this forum. I agree with LCT. What animosity? I see a lot of people trying to understand the camera and what it has to offer, and a lot of great contribution from M11 owners informing the discussion. This is a Leica forum - did you think it was DPReview or somewhere else? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 24, 2022 Posted February 24, 2022 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here Not a very positive take on M11 by Overgaard - says it will not be a classic. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Herr Barnack Posted February 24, 2022 Share #42 Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, SrMi said: Absolutely. Being interested in Thorsten's final opinion does not mean that it will influence my decision. For me, the interesting part is to see how he will come to a conclusion. It may help me understand the strange M11 animosity permeating this forum. Please see post #14 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/328850-leica-m11-that-ugly-exposed-usb-c-port-let’s-talk-about-it/#comment-4363912 Edited February 24, 2022 by Herr Barnack Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Prime Posted February 24, 2022 Share #43 Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) I found the video to be an interesting perspective. It was enough to show that the M11 is not for me in its current form. Interesting also that he pointed to the M9 as a classic and despite it’s technically outdated specifications it is darn expensive if you want one with a fixed sensor. Edited February 24, 2022 by Mr.Prime Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 24, 2022 Share #44 Posted February 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said: Interesting also that he pointed to the M9 as a classic and despite it’s technically outdated specifications it is darn expensive if you want one. Yet the forum ‘noise’ surrounding the M9 introduction was every bit as loud, and often negative, as the M11 launch. Members were bitching about all sorts of problems, real or perceived… horrible colors, cracked sensors, red edge problems, buffer issues, SD card compatibility issues, camera freezing, etc. And the usual unrealized wishes, hoping for improvements in the next iteration. Short memories. This, too, will pass. Jeff 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 24, 2022 Share #45 Posted February 24, 2022 Agreed - loud voices are rarely representative … Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 24, 2022 Share #46 Posted February 24, 2022 32 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said: Please see post #14 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/328850-leica-m11-that-ugly-exposed-usb-c-port-let’s-talk-about-it/#comment-4363912 Hardly. You joined the forum 4 years after the M9 launch. Far noisier than the M11 intro. Or the UV/IR mess with the M8. And did you forget the debates about the M240? Horribly fat (by mm), video haters vs lovers, bring back a ‘real’ M chorus, etc. Nothing new under the sun. Stick around… Jeff 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted February 24, 2022 Share #47 Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 6 minutes ago, Jeff S said: ...Nothing new under the sun. Stick around… Jeff A significant percentage of supposed Leica "lovers" are not happy unless they're unhappy, it seems. 🙄 Edited February 24, 2022 by Herr Barnack 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 24, 2022 Share #48 Posted February 24, 2022 11 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said: A significant percentage of supposed Leica "lovers" are not happy unless they're unhappy, it seems. 🙄 The ‘glass half full’ spin would be passionate about the brand. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakontil Posted February 25, 2022 Share #49 Posted February 25, 2022 21 hours ago, Stevejack said: Yeah, Thorsten hit home with the simplicity argument and this being what most of us are buying into with Leica. I'm torn - I want features and options when I spend a lot of money on a camera, otherwise I feel like I'm not getting my money's worth. But then I also want simplicity and mechanical precision, to feel like I'm shooting with a machine and not a computer. I guess we could argue that Leica's job is to merge the technology with the simplicity and THAT's what we're paying the big bucks for. But how simple do they make it?? I was probably the loudest to complain when they implemented long exposure noise reduction on the M10 and I had no menu option to turn it off. As a photographer I also want full control and don't like when it's taken away. People say they just want ISO, shutter speed, and aperture settings on their camera and that's it. Pure photography. But keeping things simple in the digital age means taking away options and having certain things built in to the programming that are decided for you. That's not great either. So the M11 is in-between. It doesn't really feel 'mechanical' enough to satisfy that argument, and it doesn't feel 'techie' enough to satisfy that side of it. So it's a camera of compromises and it can probably never really please those who fall heavily to one side or the other. For those who are happy with the compromises, it's actually pretty close to the perfect camera. Yeah i could feel you, but this m11 makes me appreciate my MP film even more and i thought M10 with its slimmer body from m240 was all a digital M i could ask for i havent got the thoughts of acquiring M11 now, may be someday along the way but for now i felt ISO, Shutter speed, RF and aperture, of course with its solid build like a tank as M used to be are all i need in M bodies 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max EPR Posted February 25, 2022 Share #50 Posted February 25, 2022 I watched the video Overgaard and it did not affect my opinion of the M11. My M11 photos wows me. I have never been happier with the photos my M lenses produce. My M11 photos are sharper, less noise and better color than my M10. I like the new battery, solid build, the lighter weight, the new menu, the USB-C port and even the 3 resolutions. The concern if the M11 is a "classic" seems unimportant. The capabilities and joy of use of the M11 is what impresses me. 9 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted February 25, 2022 Share #51 Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Max EPR said: I watched the video Overgaard and it did not affect my opinion of the M11. My M11 photos wows me. I have never been happier with the photos my M lenses produce. My M11 photos are sharper, less noise and better color than my M10. I like the new battery, solid build, the lighter weight, the new menu, the USB-C port and even the 3 resolutions. The concern if the M11 is a "classic" seems unimportant. The capabilities and joy of use of the M11 is what impresses me. Even looking at M11 images on a laptop screen, they are head and shoulders above images produced by any other M camera in terms of image quality, and they leave the images of competitor's cameras and lenses in the dust. I would expect printed images coming from an M11 with M glass - particularly any of the APO M lenses - to have a staggering level of image quality. At the end of the day, isn't image quality the priority when we buy the M11 and M lenses? Edited February 25, 2022 by Herr Barnack Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knipsknecht Posted February 25, 2022 Share #52 Posted February 25, 2022 vor 10 Minuten schrieb Herr Barnack: […] At the end of the day, isn't image quality the priority when we buy the M11 and M lenses? That’s one part of the equation I would say. Personally I would add the whole shooting experience and the unique way the camera is designed and made. Canon and Nikon cameras and lenses produce great image quality, too. But I prefer to use the Leica M system because I really enjoy the design, the experience and the image quality. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 25, 2022 Share #53 Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) Oh my. If the camera dictated superb image/print quality, the history of the medium will have to be rewritten. Any experienced printer, for instance, will know that a gorgeous print (or even desired colors) won’t just magically pop out of the printer (or darkroom). Not if one has high standards. Even assuming a print worthy pic, there are dozens of variables involved, most of which require the skill, judgment and decision making of the user… at every stage from shooting to editing to printing to final display. This is fundamental old news, unchanged with every camera generation. Image quality has hardly been a limitation, especially in recent times, for many cameras (and lenses) and brands, in the right hands. Let’s all buy M11s and get better/fantastic images! Ridiculous. Jeff Edited February 25, 2022 by Jeff S 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted February 25, 2022 Share #54 Posted February 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, Knipsknecht said: That’s one part of the equation I would say. Personally I would add the whole shooting experience and the unique way the camera is designed and made. Canon and Nikon cameras and lenses produce great image quality, too. But I prefer to use the Leica M system because I really enjoy the design, the experience and the image quality. I would agree - M cameras are unique, as is the M camera shooting experience. I was reading a blog a few days ago where the blogger said the the Leica M is most likely the most beautiful camera ever made. I would lean toward agreeing with that sentiment. When we consider the attributes of the M cameras and lenses - heritage, shooting experience, engineering, quality, dependability, portability and image quality - it is small wonder that they have achieved cult status. I recall reading a review of the M11 where the reviewer stated that the M11 is "approaching medium format image quality." I'm guessing he was referring to digital medium format quality, as my M-P 240 is capable of printed image quality that equals or surpasses the image quality of my film based medium format Ilfochrome prints. If you think about that, it is mind boggling that such a small, hand held camera is capable of that level of printed image quality. And the M11 is light years better than the M-P 240. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted February 25, 2022 Share #55 Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Jeff S said: Oh my. If the camera dictated superb image/print quality, the history of the medium will have to be rewritten. Any experienced printer, for instance, will know that a gorgeous print (or even desired colors) won’t just magically pop out of the printer (or darkroom). Not if one has high standards. Even assuming a print worthy pic, there are dozens of variables involved, most of which require the skill, judgment and decision making of the user… at every stage from shooting to editing to printing to final display. This is fundamental old news, unchanged with every camera generation. Image quality has hardly been a limitation, especially in recent times, for many cameras (and lenses) and brands, in the right hands. Let’s all buy M11s and get better/fantastic images! Ridiculous. Jeff Those variables are givens. The camera - and the sensor technology within it - are but one facet of the process of producing exhibit quality fine prints. I thought that to be common knowledge. Quote Let’s all buy M11s and get better/fantastic images! Not what I was saying - in the least. Handing a chimpanzee an M11 with a 35mm APO attached does nor magically transform him into Constantine Manos. Again, I thought that to be common knowledge. Apparently it is not. Edited February 25, 2022 by Herr Barnack 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 25, 2022 Share #56 Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said: Even looking at M11 images on a laptop screen, they are head and shoulders above images produced by any other M camera in terms of image quality, and they leave the images of competitor's cameras and lenses in the dust. I would expect printed images coming from an M11 with M glass - particularly any of the APO M lenses - to have a staggering level of image quality. And yet you wrote this nonsense… on so many levels. I see the usual online pics… varying from nice to crap, none of which proves anything about the camera per se, let alone what a print would show, even if we could isolate contributing factors. Leave competitors in the dust? Beyond silly. Jeff 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted February 25, 2022 Share #57 Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Jeff S said: And yet you wrote this nonsense… on so many levels. I see the usual online pics… varying from nice to crap, none of which proves anything about the camera per se, let alone what a print would show, even if we could isolate contributing factors. Leave competitors in the dust? Beyond silly. In your own personal opinion - which is nothing more than an opinion. Last I checked, no one on this forum had the market cornered with regard to absolute truth - including you, although though you obviously think otherwise. Your snide condescension adds nothing to the discussion - but it does reveal your true colors. Thank you for that. We're done. Edited February 25, 2022 by Herr Barnack 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 25, 2022 Share #58 Posted February 25, 2022 44 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said: Handing a chimpanzee an M11 with a 35mm APO attached does nor magically transform him into Constantine Manos. Again, I thought that to be common knowledge. Apparently it is not. Nothing condescending there, I’m sure. 😏 Pot… kettle. Were all just expressing opinions. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 25, 2022 Share #59 Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said: Even looking at M11 images on a laptop screen, they are head and shoulders above images produced by any other M camera in terms of image quality, and they leave the images of competitor's cameras and lenses in the dust. Are you referring to OoC jpegs? Just curious as Leica's have never been stellar in my experience but the only M11 files i've downloaded were raws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted February 25, 2022 Share #60 Posted February 25, 2022 25 minutes ago, Jeff S said: Nothing condescending there, I’m sure. 😏 Pot… kettle. Were all just expressing opinions. Jeff You are reaching - and missing by a huge margin. There are ways to express opinions that are not obnoxious and offensive, you know. Perhaps you should consider trying it some time. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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