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Not a very positive take on M11 by Overgaard - says it will not be a classic


leicavkk
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47 minutes ago, SrMi said:

M11 sensor has the same electronic shutter issues as Sony a7rIV. I consider that Sony to be the latest generation.

The A7RIV was always behind in sensor tech compared to the flagships, other than in terms of pure resolution. I had an A7RIV for a while as a compliment to my A9. It was a great landscape / astro / portrait camera and if the A1 wasn't released I would still have it, but shutter blackout and distortion are two things that really hamper the experience of using an e-shutter - I don't think either should be present on a flagship release these days. 

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50 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Nikon Z9 seems a step ahead.

Jeff

I agree from what I've read and seen about the Z9. I also agree with Thorsten for the most part, admittedly not owning but testing the M11. I'd like to see a classic simple M (with rangefinder, not far off the M10) but with an electronic shutter only.

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1 minute ago, archive_all said:

I agree from what I've read and seen about the Z9. I also agree with Thorsten for the most part, admittedly not owning but testing the M11. I'd like to see a classic simple M (with rangefinder, not far off the M10) but with an electronic shutter only.

I rather like the click of a Leica mechanical shutter.  
 

Jeff

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4 hours ago, Jeff S said:

M11 metering benefits come from always off-the-sensor readings, not from the electronic shutter. One can be in mechanical shutter mode and still realize the metering benefits, similar to Live View mode in the M10.

Jeff

Thanks, I stand corrected and do believe I actually know that but my old brain does leak from time to time. I do like though that now reportedly the collapsible lenses will work given the meter reading of the shutter is absent - so that is also an improvement for the better towards the past....

Edited by leicavkk
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3 hours ago, SrMi said:

I disagree with the title of this thread (negativity). Yes, he says that M11 will not be classic and that neither is 240. However, it doesn't matter, I think.

I didn't say it was negative, just not very positive ( with the shutter issue just being one part of that ) and I was mainly curious whether people with the camera here concurred that the  M11 is more complicated than it needs to be

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11 minutes ago, leicavkk said:

I didn't say it was negative, just not very positive ( with the shutter issue just being one part of that ) and I was mainly curious whether people with the camera here concurred that the  M11 is more complicated than it needs to be

Not really it gives options to the user which i think is a good thing, do you wanna use an SD or internal ssd? 18/36/60MP? Mechanical or e-shutter? Etc…Once you do the initial setup to set the camera to work as you’d like it to work for you, then the shooting experience is just like any other M camera before it.

Edited by shirubadanieru
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1 minute ago, leicavkk said:

I didn't say it was negative, just not very positive ( with the shutter issue just being one part of that ) and I was mainly curious whether people with the camera here concurred that the  M11 is more complicated than it needs to be

Compared to M10-R, I find it practically equally simple. 

The new menu structure feels straightforward, and the new status screen simplifies operation. 

One more function button can be configured (rear-wheel press).

A very few entries have been added to the menu, and some have been removed.

The exposure setting is simplified (now valid for RF and LV mode).

The triple resolution is easily accessible via the status screen and does not get in the way.

I do not understand Thorsten's issues with the mechanical shutter or simplicity.

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He doesnt like the camera..thats pretty obvious..

Its a double edged sword..

If not enough people like & buy the M11..then not any good profit for Leica..

..then a new.. or even..older path has to be taken..for future M cams..

If a lot of people buy..than changes for the better can occur..

But for 9K..well..who wants a $9K camera thats not 100% perfect for what its supposed to be..or at least in the high 90's..

My Sigma FP is silent..elec shutter..and that cool..but then..there is the banding at high shutter speeds..but its only $1500 now..and smaller than the M..

I wish they would put a rangefinder in it..that would be close to perfect for me.

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13 minutes ago, jakontil said:

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication  

i have to agree, may be it takes time before i feel m11 is just as simple as M10

Yeah, Thorsten hit home with the simplicity argument and this being what most of us are buying into with Leica.

I'm torn - I want features and options when I spend a lot of money on a camera, otherwise I feel like I'm not getting my money's worth. But then I also want simplicity and mechanical precision, to feel like I'm shooting with a machine and not a computer. 

I guess we could argue that Leica's job is to merge the technology with the simplicity and THAT's what we're paying the big bucks for. But how simple do they make it??  I was probably the loudest to complain when they implemented long exposure noise reduction on the M10 and I had no menu option to turn it off. As a photographer I also want full control and don't like when it's taken away. 

People say they just want ISO, shutter speed, and aperture settings on their camera and that's it. Pure photography. But keeping things simple in the digital age means taking away options and having certain things built in to the programming that are decided for you. That's not great either. 

So the M11 is in-between. It doesn't really feel 'mechanical' enough to satisfy that argument, and it doesn't feel 'techie' enough to satisfy that side of it. So it's a camera of compromises and it can probably never really please those who fall heavily to one side or the other. For those who are happy with the compromises, it's actually pretty close to the perfect camera. 

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

After the dust settles and he wraps up his initial review, the relevant question is: will Thorsten switch to M11?

At the end of the day, reviews are nothing other than opinions.

Take them into consideration, but think for yourself - after all it is your $9000USD that you will trade (or not) for an M11.

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37 minutes ago, SrMi said:

After the dust settles and he wraps up his initial review, the relevant question is: will Thorsten switch to M11?

Thorsten @Overgaard is a good LUF colleague i had pleasure to discuss with almost 20 years ago here :eek:. Was about the Digilux 1 and i don't recall if he knew anything about M cameras then but I have always appreciated his pragmatic approach to photography and the advice he gives in this video seems to be common sense. I don't know if he intends to "switch to M11" but the way i remember him he wouldn't be talking about it if he didn't have a good experience of it already and I'd be surprised if he didn't buy the sample he shows with his own money. I may be wrong though as often :cool:.

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28 minutes ago, lct said:

 

Thorsten @Overgaard is a good LUF colleague i had pleasure to discuss with almost 20 years ago here :eek:. Was about the Digilux 1 and i don't recall if he knew anything about M cameras then but I have always appreciated his pragmatic approach to photography and the advice he gives in this video seems to be common sense. I don't know if he intends to "switch to M11" but the way i remember him he wouldn't be talking about it if he didn't have a good experience of it already and I'd be surprised if he didn't buy the sample he shows with his own money. I may be wrong though as often :cool:.

Thorsten said that he bought the M11.

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1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

At the end of the day, reviews are nothing other than opinions.

Take them into consideration, but think for yourself - after all it is your $9000USD that you will trade (or not) for an M11.

Absolutely.
Being interested in Thorsten's final opinion does not mean that it will influence my decision. For me, the interesting part is to see how he will come to a conclusion. It may help me understand the strange M11 animosity permeating this forum.

 

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1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Absolutely.
Being interested in Thorsten's final opinion does not mean that it will influence my decision. For me, the interesting part is to see how he will come to a conclusion. It may help me understand the strange M11 animosity permeating this forum.

Why animosity? It's good to compare different opinions and experiences but fact is M users like simplicity generally and Leica's response is the most complicated i've ever seen or at least felt in 40+ years. I'll end up buying one just to understand how it works if things go on like this :D.

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They should release a simpler pared down version for less..

But they wont..

I think they are embarking down the wrong road..wifi and all that..

If anything..they should have stuck video in there..for emergencies..

And allowed people to select the best video frame if necessary..instead of giving users..esp old ones..

Sore fore fingers from clicking shutters too much..that dont correspond soundwise..with the actual photos taken..

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