Educate me about the variations of LEICA M3 Black Paint (original)

[yeahyoung]

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I am doing some research on the market for a LEICA M3 Original Black Paint, and have been baffled by the auction prices in the past 3 years at the Leitz Photographica auction. May I ask for some enlightenment on the factors that determine the market value of such a camera? It seems like batches/year matters, and that condition matters in an ironic way, that the ones with strong brassing and patina were fetching more than the ones in better conditions. 

https://www.leitz-auction.com/auction/en/auctions/auction35

https://www.leitz-auction.com/auction/en/auctions/auction38

 https://www.leitz-auction.com/auction/en/auctions/auction39

For example, this one (1960, pre 1million s/o) was sold for 54000 EURO in 2021 (Auction 38): 

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While this one, in better condition than the previous one, was sold for 12000 EURO in 2019 (Auction 35):

The lens also matters obviously, but what explains why this one went for 66000 EURO in 2021 (Auction 38): 

And of course one from the earliest batch went for an absurd 264,000 EURO (strangely the lens release button wasn't even covered in black paint): 

 

I have only read from Langer's books about the different variations, but really can't figure out what causes the variation in the market price. Can someone please educate me about the differences between different M3 Black Paint versions, not including the ones converted later in the 70s or 80s? Much appreciated. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by yeahyoung

[a.noctilux]

Nothing to do with M3.

Only offer and demand.

Nothing logic in financial world.

Adding one/two/X zeros to the amount has always been there.

 

Good (?) for finance though.

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[yeahyoung]

19 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Nothing to do with M3.

Only offer and demand.

Nothing logic in financial world.

Adding one/two/X zeros to the amount has always been there.

Good (?) for finance though.

Thanks! That actually explains a lot... 

Edited February 14, 2022 by yeahyoung

[jankap]

The last one: the lens and the camera carry the same number. 

[yeahyoung]

3 minutes ago, jankap said:

The last one: the lens and the camera carry the same number. 

You mean the body and the lens were made in the same year (1959) and purchased in the same year (1960). 

Edited February 14, 2022 by yeahyoung

[pippy]

I'm not an Historian about anything Leica - so please bear in mind that everything I am about to type is just "As Far As I Know" - but if I was asked to have a guess as to why the last example would have been particularly attractive I'd suggest the following;

First-off it is from the very first batch - which is important in itself. This batch also happened to be made up of only 100 examples so 'rarity' scores highly. Its early production date also means that it has the features found on the early M3 bodies such as the 'Buddha Ears' strap-lugs etc. as per the description. It is in fine, original, unrestored - i.e. unmolested(!) - conditionwhich is something that collectors also rate highly.

The lens is another story. It is a very early v1 50mm Summilux. These are fairly rare as they weren't in production for long and to find one of these lenses in such fine original Black-Paint finish is, I'd guess, rather unusual to say the least.

Add in to the whole equation that these items have delivery details known and come with their original purchase receipt this means the provenance is absolutely impeccable.

Of the other three? One was from an auction which occurred two years before the others so this might well be an important factor. We have all seen prices for all 'vintage' Leica equipment rise significantly over the last few years. The others auctioned in the same year made similar amounts with the higher price being realised by the camera with lens pairing so that one detail could explain things.

Other factors always come into play such as originality / mechanical condition so it's not always a simple matter to understand why things fetch the prices they do.

I'm sure that members who actually do know something about these cameras and lenses will be able to offer far better reasons so hopefully a number of them will contribute to your question!

Philip.

[jankap]

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44 minutes ago, yeahyoung said:

You mean the body and the lens were made in the same year (1959) and purchased in the same year (1960). 

That I don´t know of course. According to the description of the auction - you can read it by yourself - the numbers are equal. 

[yeahyoung]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

I'm not an Historian about anything Leica - so please bear in mind that everything I am about to type is just "As Far As I Know" - but if I was asked to have a guess as to why the last example would have been particularly attractive I'd suggest the following;

First-off it is from the very first batch - which is important in itself. This batch also happened to be made up of only 100 examples so 'rarity' scores highly. Its early production date also means that it has the features found on the early M3 bodies such as the 'Buddha Ears' strap-lugs etc. as per the description. It is in fine, original, unrestored - i.e. unmolested(!) - conditionwhich is something that collectors also rate highly.

The lens is another story. It is a very early v1 50mm Summilux. These are fairly rare as they weren't in production for long and to find one of these lenses in such fine original Black-Paint finish is, I'd guess, rather unusual to say the least.

Add in to the whole equation that these items have delivery details known and come with their original purchase receipt this means the provenance is absolutely impeccable.

Of the other three? One was from an auction which occurred two years before the others so this might well be an important factor. We have all seen prices for all 'vintage' Leica equipment rise significantly over the last few years. The others auctioned in the same year made similar amounts with the higher price being realised by the camera with lens pairing so that one detail could explain things.

Other factors always come into play such as originality / mechanical condition so it's not always a simple matter to understand why things fetch the prices they do.

I'm sure that members who actually do know something about these cameras and lenses will be able to offer far better reasons so hopefully a number of them will contribute to your question!

Philip.

Thank you so much Philip. Indeed I didn't notice that was a 50 lux with reverse scallop focus ring in black paint. 

[luigi bertolotti]

A rare camera, an ultrarare lens...with original invoice matching exactly the auctioned set... this can get crazy some rich collector...  😁 so good for him and for the auctioners.

 

[Guest]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb luigi bertolotti:

... so good for him and for the auctioners.

vor 15 Minuten schrieb luigi bertolotti:

...but completely nonsensical for users of Leicas.
I find such exaggerations of prices by speculating collectors highly despicable.
Anyone who can't produce excellent images from his Leicas but collects them only in tresors deserves my contempt.

 

[luigi bertolotti]

3 minutes ago, mnutzer said:

 

Agree... ther's something not sane in those speculations...

Edited February 14, 2022 by luigi bertolotti