On the fence about a 246 monochrom. Tell me about "enhanced detail"

[quietglow]

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I have been hemming and hawing about getting a monochrom for some time. I shoot B&W 95% of the time and have since the 90s. My main camera is currently an MP240. The camera stays in B&W mode, I shoot DNG and have my workflow in Lightroom set up to automatically convert incoming images to B&W. So the reason most often stated for getting a monochrom, adopting a B&W mindset, is not applicable to me. Similarly, I am not so much swayed by the higher ISO performance. I shoot a bunch of stree/city stuff in low light, but in the old days I did that with HP5+ @1600 and these days I am pretty happy with my M240 at 1600 (for B&W!). Being able to crank it up to 12500 sounds fun, but it's not something I need enough to spend thousands for. 

That leaves the claims about much improved detail with the monochrom vs color models. I have seen comparison test shots of bookshelves etc. but I feel like this is something that isn't captured very well in clinical tests. I have looked at many monochrom images, and there does seem to be something different about the fine detail in them. I would appreciate any anecdotal info you could supply about this. Is it worth switching from a color model to the monochrom for the improved fine detail alone?

I am considering the M246 most seriously. I am not opposed to taking a gamble on an MM, though right now the prices of them seem inflated (they're in the ballpark of the 246). The M10M is out of my budget. 

[overexposed]

I did own the 246 for some time and never bonded with it, I also used to have the M-P, same sensor.

I never liked the high iso performance, even though I managed to get some decent images out of both cameras. But ultimately I sold both cameras.

In the middle of last year I got am M10M, and to make it short, the ISO setting stays usually at auto iso, with max. 12.8k 

To make it even shorter, when you say the M10M is out of your budget, I say..... save a few more months and DO get the M10M!

*mic drop*

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[Jeff S]

Best to demo or rent and decide based on your own workflow, which hopefully includes printing. Screen shots don’t say much.

For me, there is still a mindset difference when I use my Monochroms than when I use my color digital cameras, even if 95% are converted to b&w.  The difference is that 5% means that I’m still not solely looking for black and white pics; still potentially distracted by observing for good color compositions.  A Monochrom is more akin to having b/w film loaded.  I never carry a color camera when I use a Monochrom (MM or M10M).  
 

You won’t know until you try.  I shot b/w film since the 70’s, and always argued here that I didn’t need a Monochrom for b/w shooting; that I was disciplined already.  Then I tried one for an extended demo.  Now I own two.  My prints from all my cameras, however, are superb, if I do my job well; otherwise not so much, regardless of gear.  YMMV.

Jeff
 

[a.noctilux]

@quietglow

I will not try to convince you,

what for ?

As we are all different and the camera is just a tool (or means) to attain some types of results (including pleasure of use ! ).

As Jeff wrote, you can borrow/rent M246 to try out for yourself.

Just go out or do your 'testings' ONLY with the M246 alone (maybe coloured filters if you have them).

 

So long ago, I took only coloured pics, now I insist on b&w mindset to learn or maybe some of us have it already,

I think the b&w mindset is only useful when coloured filters are used in the field, to give the pop of monochrom files depending on the colours of subjects.

In my use, with monochrom the coloured filters are not only to darken sky (or something too well know), but a way to enhance my photography.

[quietglow]

23 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

As Jeff wrote, you can borrow/rent M246 to try out for yourself.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. So I meant to include a bit about this. In my ideal world I would definitely rent an M246 to check it out, but I haven't been able to find anyone still renting them. Does anyone have a source? 

I'd just buy one assuming that I'd resell if it didn't work out, but the prices of them are currently REALLY variable, so that could end up being a pretty costly test if I don't like it. 

[Jeff S]

Well, you could rent the M10 Monochrom. At least that would demonstrate the Monochrom experience, and if that combined with the IQ doesn’t convince, then no need to explore further.  Or maybe you can work out a demo, or purchase/return, of an earlier used version with a friendly dealer.

Jeff

[quietglow]

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53 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Well, you could rent the M10 Monochrom. At least that would demonstrate the Monochrom experience, and if that combined with the IQ doesn’t convince, then no need to explore further.  Or maybe you can work out a demo, or purchase/return, of an earlier used version with a friendly dealer.

Jeff

I have played with M10M files a bunch, and they're seriously amazing (!). But I am not sure that I would learn how a 246 would serve me from renting an M10M. Good idea about maybe working something out with a dealer. I'm in Chicago, and Tamarkin is wonderful.

I just reread your previous post, and for clarification: I do not select which photos are color vs. monochome after I shoot them. This would drive me insane the same way that carrying bodies with color and b&w film used to. My mind just doesn't work that way. I meant that basically for 95% of the year I shoot B&W and occasionally (almost always in the fall) I think "shooting fall trees in B&W is maudlin" and so I shoot some color photos 😄 Or someone asks me to shoot something in color etc. I am a believer in the power of restriction (i.e. completely removing the option for color) to further artistic goals. I just don't think that particular restriction offers me much, as I find self-imposing it to be natural for me. 

[Jeff S]

I own MM and M10M.  I’ve made great pics and prints from each… and mediocre pics from each. For me it’s more about the rest of the experience.  One of these days I’ll sell the MM.

Jeff

[mediumformula]

I recently started a thread about my M10M purchase last month that might be of interest if you haven't read it.  One thing I did not mention in that thread is that I actually bought a M246 in early 2020 right when the M10M was released.  Prices on the 246 dropped really low (lower than they are now) and I was able to pick one up for cheap from the Leica store.  After a week of shooting on the 246 I decided to return it.  It's not that the 246 is a bad camera.  It's a good camera, but it didn't really excite me much and I realized that I would rather just shoot on Trix or Tmax on my MP.  The 246 didn't provide me with something different enough qualitatively from film that would make me want to shoot it instead of or in addition to film.  But I was still intrigued by the digital B&W concept and figured I would eventually try the M10M, which I bought last month.  My impression of the M10M was very different from the 246.  The M10M files blew me away.  They are extremely malleable in Lightroom.  To me they have another dimensions of tonal complexity and richness that is unique to the M10M.  I know you state you don't care about low light capabilities, but I would re-think this because the M10M opens up opportunities that were never capable on film and it can expand your photographic vision.  And I say this as someone who loves film and continues to shoot on film.  M10Ms are very expensive.  Even used.  If that is out of your price range I would honestly consider waiting a couple of years until the prices drop when the M11M releases or save enough money.  In the mean time shoot film or your 240.  I say this not to disparage the 246, but just to tell you my own experience with the two cameras.  I have never used an M9M.

 

 

[quietglow]

1 hour ago, mediumformula said:

The M10M files blew me away.  They are extremely malleable in Lightroom. 

Thanks! In fact, I did see your post, and it's very interesting to know that you "rented" a 246 before. I also was really blown away by the M10M raw files that I've worked with. I shoot large format (film), and the M10M files remind me of the latitude you get from scans of 4x5 negs. Lots of info to work with, for sure.

Maybe renting one might give me the fortitude to just put aside the GAS for enough time to save the money to buy one...

edit: I just looked to find that the prices are not quite as high as they were last time I checked. Maybe the M11 effect?

Edited February 8, 2022 by quietglow

[mediumformula]

21 minutes ago, quietglow said:

Thanks! In fact, I did see your post, and it's very interesting to know that you "rented" a 246 before. I also was really blown away by the M10M raw files that I've worked with. I shoot large format (film), and the M10M files remind me of the latitude you get from scans of 4x5 negs. Lots of info to work with, for sure.

Maybe renting one might give me the fortitude to just put aside the GAS for enough time to save the money to buy one...

edit: I just looked to find that the prices are not quite as high as they were last time I checked. Maybe the M11 effect?

A used M10M should be about $7k currently. 

[jonnyboy]

Waiting for the M10M to drop price require a huge amount of patience. On the other hand, M246 has become 'relatively' affordable (another user bought one for 2500 few days ago!)...
I do shoot 99% of the time with my M246 (previously, M9M, previoysly M8!) and occasionally In shoot with the Q when I need some color. As you know, the Monochrom can produce amazing images and very unique...but on the other hands, I must say the Leica Q (which Im pretty sure has the same spec of a M240?) converted to black and white it's still pretty amazing!

Here's some example (I shot live gigs) one is with the M246 and the other one is a bw conversion from Leica Q (the first one!):

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I couldn't even tell, if you ask me! The difference is if I had to push some shadows/highlights or if I had to crank up the ISO higher than 3200....

Edited February 10, 2022 by jonnyboy

[quietglow]

1 hour ago, jonnyboy said:

Waiting for the M10M to drop price require a huge amount of patience. On the other hand, M246 has become 'relatively' affordable (another user bought one for 2500 few days ago!)...

Yeah I am seeing the 246s in good shape going sub 4k now (in dollars -- I assume when you say 2500 you mean pounds). It'll be a long time before M10Ms are there. For me the cost is not a simple matter of being able to afford it. Because of what I normally do with a camera (3k miles a year backpacking and hiking), a year of use for me definitely drops a body a grade or two per year. Bringing a 4k camera down a couple grade costs significantly less than the same on a 7k camera. Cost of doing biz, for sure, but it's a factor in my decision.

And, btw, nice images!

Edited February 10, 2022 by quietglow

[lookbook]

... I have always photographed in bw.
Converting to bw is only an option for me in an emergency.

I have the 246 and have never had a better camera for bw.
i have no longing for the m10m

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f/11   1/60sec.  iso12500 | voigtlaender heliar 15mm

 

[xiaubauu2009]

12 bit files from the m246 make a difference.

[a.noctilux]

2 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

12 bit files from the m246 make a difference.

Hello xiaubauu2009,

can you say more about this interesting 12 bit files.

Which camera(s) has 12 bit files in other M ?

What makes difference comparing to which camera ?

[xiaubauu2009]

I think all M except the M246 has 14bit... I just feel the 12bit is a bit too smooth in rendering to my liking. I sold the m246 pretty fast but rebought the m9m...

12 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Hello xiaubauu2009,

can you say more about this interesting 12 bit files.

Which camera(s) has 12 bit files in other M ?

What makes difference comparing to which camera ?

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by xiaubauu2009

[a.noctilux]

Thanks for this clarification @xiaubauu2009.

I rely on real use, so number of bits never had importance, so I didn't know this12 or 14 bits things...

( could you provide sources, for these 12/14 bit, if you want to of course)

 

I had a look at the files of my Monochrom and M246, carefully comparing them, I saw nothing special in Monochrom files over M246's.

Long ago, I took a copy 1:1 of a slide with same equipment from the two Monochroms to compare the outputs.

I had just redone the critical comparisions, not big difference between them, so in my use, they are good for the job, this is what I found

maybe I'm not picky enough.

[xiaubauu2009]

33 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Thanks for this clarification @xiaubauu2009.

I rely on real use, so number of bits never had importance, so I didn't know this12 or 14 bits things...

( could you provide sources, for these 12/14 bit, if you want to of course)

 

I had a look at the files of my Monochrom and M246, carefully comparing them, I saw nothing special in Monochrom files over M246's.

Long ago, I took a copy 1:1 of a slide with same equipment from the two Monochroms to compare the outputs.

I had just redone the critical comparisions, not big difference between them, so in my use, they are good for the job, this is what I found

maybe I'm not picky enough.

There’s a few discussion on the forum on this 12bit thing. It’s a personal thing. It does have some difference in the rendering for me., particularly once you start playing around with the file.

Edited February 28, 2022 by xiaubauu2009

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lookbook]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb xiaubauu2009:

There’s a few discussion on the forum on this 12bit thing. It’s a personal thing. It does have some difference in the rendering for me., particularly once you start playing around with the file.

... an amazing theory.
If you think about this theory further, fewer bits in an image would be smoother than more bits!
If someone has a 2-bit image, then the whole thing is quickly proven.