Lenses for M10 and other digital M cameras - random thoughts, along with what I learned during a Red Dot Forum Camera Talk

[MikeMyers]

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A somewhat "fuzzy" question, not sure where it leads me to....

I have a few thoughts bouncing around in my head, having watched a very long Red Dot Forum Camera Talk, a “live” broadcast last night, about the Leica M11, where David Farkas and josh Lehrer, two experts on Leica cameras answered questions that they were asked in a simultaneous ‘chat’. I asked a few questions, two of which they answered.  On a whim, I asked them about using "vintage" lenses on the new M11.  Here's a link to the YouTube recording of that presentation: Q&Q on the new Leica 11  .....and the answer to this question can be found at the 1 hour, 48 minute, 15 seconds into the video.

I came away from that discussion thinking my 50 and 60 year old Leica lenses are not "good enough" to capture the image quality in a 60-meg image from the M11.  Some time ago, I read about the Voigtlander 50mm APO-LANTHAR, and was immediately impressed, as I felt I could easily afford to buy one.  I did, and have thoroughly enjoyed the results.  For reasons I don't fully understand or appreciate, the very old Leica lenses are preferred by many people, because of their "old" design, which adds a unique appeal to photos taken with them.  I'm not experienced enough to properly understand this - but my experience is that the old lenses create visually appealing images, but the Voigtlander APO-LANTHAR captures far more detail.

I took a test photo of the city of Miami from my balcony this morning, and I will copy two snapshots below, one of the full image, and one of a small part of the scene, captured at 100% on my display.  For most of you, this is no big deal - it's what should be expected.  For me, it's one of the reasons I preferred my Leica with the old lenses, compared to my Nikon D750 with the "standard" lenses for that camera.  In every comparison, the Leica came out ahead.

 

Before I post this, there was an amazing scene, 1 hour, 10 minutes, and 42 seconds into that video, where David shows a snapshot he took in New York, and a 100% blow-up.  To my eyes, this was what I might have expected from a large format camera - that the M11 did it, was amazing, and one more reason on the "yes" side to eventually buying one.

Back to this thread - the two lenses I use most often are the 50mm and the 35mm.  While I can't see myself buying a new 35mm late model Leica lens, the 35mm f/2 APO LANTHAR is something I could order today.  If I buy it through Amazon, I can easily return it, if I'm not satisfied.  

I originally was just going to ask here in this forum what those of you who have the Voigtlander lens think of it, but I thought I'd post the whole thing, along with my thoughts on watching the Red Dot Forum Camera Talk.  There were a LOT of things they discussed in that video, and I may even watch it a second time - even the discussion on charging the M11 battery was fascinating, and I never would have known those things but for the video.  It's well worth watching.

 

Unfortunately, "working" and "retired are inversely proportional.  While I was working, I had minimal time, but enough money to buy what I wanted, and now that I'm retired, I have lots of time, but need to be careful about how much I can spend.    ......and towards the end of the video, David and Josh agreed the most important thing was to have a Leica and lenses, and be using it, and it was a secondary importance to get a "newer" model of a Leica.

 

 

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[stefanusj]

i dont have M11. I am still using a few old lenses like Summicron50 v2 Rigid, a few "remake" of the old leica lenses (like Summaron and Nocti) with modern digital camera (SL2 and M10). i don't have any complaints with the picture quality with that lenses, and i enjoy using them because most of the times we take a pictures because of the joy and memory of it, and not to analyzed it. 

i always remind myself (when post processing it in the lightroom) that it is a camera lens not a microscope lens.

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[MarkP]

48 minutes ago, stefanusj said:

I always remind myself … that it is a camera lens not a microscope lens.

Best comment I’ve seen in the forum in the past 10 years 🤣.

I have my fair share of old and new lenses and am certainly guilty of microscopic lens analysis (AKA pixel-peeping).  I now will think of this every time I assess one of my lenses 🙂.

Edited January 31, 2022 by MarkP

[MikeMyers]

I agree with the comments on "pixel peeping", but I do a lot of photography (er, did...) for Aravind Eye Hospital in India, and they often want to display these at a huge size, that people will be seeing from close-up.  It does make a difference to me if all that find details is crisp and clear, or a blurry mush.  One of the big advantages of my Leica lenses ten years ago, compared to people shooting other cameras, is the Leica + Leica lens captured more detail than anything else they had access to.

Bottom line, I need to be able to display all this detail when I want to - which seems to imply spending perhaps $4,000 on a Leica lens, or $1,000 for a Voigtlander.  Since I'm now retired, I can't spend $$$ like I used to when I had a paycheck coming in, and could budget things more easily.

Moving from 24 megapixels to 60 would also be very useful to me, but that's close to $10,000, which I can't justify right now.  At some point, things are "good enough".  We can't all drive a Ferrari or Rolls, live in a mansion, and take weekly trips in our private jet to interesting places.  I don't feel "deprived"; I do feel lucky to have my M10 and my collection of Leica glass, starting with lenses I got in the 1970's and kept.  I have never sold or traded any Leica lens I ever got, and still have an M2 and an M3 from back in the old days, and my M8.2 which is wonderful for infrared.  Like I said, if I was still working, my name would already be on the wait list for the M11.

[stefanusj]

If you really have to zoomed in but at moderate cost, i suggest try a macro (micro) lens. Unfortunately, there are not many macro lens in Leica…

 

 

[MikeMyers]

1 minute ago, stefanusj said:

If you really have to zoomed in but at moderate cost, i suggest try a macro (micro) lens. Unfortunately, there are not many macro lens in Leica…

No, I wasn't referring to macro or micro photography, just regular photos I take that someone at the hospital want to make a huge print from.  Most of these have been with my Fuji X100f, as it's the camera I'm usually walking around with.  I wish my Fuji was full-frame, or that Leica made their own copy of the Fuji.  Not gonna happen.

If I knew then, what I know now, I'd have bought the Fuji with interchangeable lenses, not the X100f, but it is nice having something so small, with almost all the features I need.  Since I don't enjoy wandering all over with a zillion-dollar camera around my neck, I've been thinking of taking my M8.2 on my next trip.......

Meanwhile, here at home, my Fuji sits in a drawer, and I mostly use my M10, my D750, and occasionally my Df.

[stefanusj]

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9 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

No, I wasn't referring to macro or micro photography, just regular photos I take that someone at the hospital want to make a huge print from.  Most of these have been with my Fuji X100f, as it's the camera I'm usually walking around with.  I wish my Fuji was full-frame, or that Leica made their own copy of the Fuji.  Not gonna happen.

If I knew then, what I know now, I'd have bought the Fuji with interchangeable lenses, not the X100f, but it is nice having something so small, with almost all the features I need.  Since I don't enjoy wandering all over with a zillion-dollar camera around my neck, I've been thinking of taking my M8.2 on my next trip.......

Meanwhile, here at home, my Fuji sits in a drawer, and I mostly use my M10, my D750, and occasionally my Df.

If you want to print big, then: 1) big sensor helps a lot; 2) big megapixel is also help (how big is the printing?).
3) lens resolution (peter karbe often said that the modern leica lens still relevant with at least 100mpx sensors)

Full frame vs aps-H (m8.2) vs aps-c (fuji x100). If you have d750 and m10, even with old leica lens, im sure that it will exceed the x100f printing. 
 

hope it helps. Thanks. 

[kerschberg]

Hello Everyone,

I did an experiment with my Leica SL2 and the 35 mm prime lens for the SL2, versus the M10-R and the 35 mm Voigtlander APO lens.

You can find the comparison in this document.

https://www.craft.do/s/9QzBkfKWsMB2wF

My conclusion is that the 35mm Voigtlander APO lens is very very good!

Cheers,

Larry

[MikeMyers]

16 minutes ago, kerschberg said:

did an experiment with my Leica SL2 and the 35 mm prime lens for the SL2, versus the M10-R and the 35 mm Voigtlander APO lens.

I wish you had stood in one spot, and shot with one camera, then the other, for the exact same view.

[Camaro5]

On 1/30/2022 at 11:27 AM, MikeMyers said:

Unfortunately, "working" and "retired are inversely proportional.  While I was working, I had minimal time, but enough money to buy what I wanted, and now that I'm retired, I have lots of time, but need to be careful about how much I can spend.    ......and towards the end of the video, David and Josh agreed the most important thing was to have a Leica and lenses, and be using it, and it was a secondary importance to get a "newer" model of a Leica.

 

 

I'm in his exact same position.  For me, it's not really about not having the funds but more about not wanting to spend the kind of cash it would take to upgrade to an M11.  I have an almost new kit with an M10 and 50mm and 28mm Summicrons, and a 75mm Summarit.  There has been more than one time that I've come close to pulling the trigger on an M10-R and trading for a 50mm Summilux but I've held back.  My resolution for 2022 was to not get any new gear this year and the fact I've made it through January is pretty good so far.  

[Jeff S]

51 minutes ago, Camaro5 said:

My resolution for 2022 …

24MP, not 40MP.

Jeff

[shanefking]

If resolution is the primary factor for you, why not get an SL or even an S?  Used examples are becoming quite affordable, by Leica standards.  According to an Overgaard interview with Mr. Karbe, the SL’s lenses are designed to be able to resolve up to 100mp when the time comes.  
 

Personally, I would hesitate to declare 60MP a complete advantage over 24MP… in fact certain shots that would be pixel sharp with my M9 have come out with a bit of motion blur at the pixel level on my M10.  I imagine one might have to budget an extra stop of shutter speed to get pixel sharpness on the M11, if that is the goal.

[Camaro5]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

24MP, not 40MP.

Jeff

Yep, it appears to be that way for now.  My other (expensive) hobby, the one that's in the garage has needed some love.  Just did some beautiful golden hour shots of it with my M10 and 50 Cron.  I may just rent a 50 Lux to compare.

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, Camaro5 said:

Just did some beautiful golden hour shots of it with my M10 and 50 Cron.  I may just rent a 50 Lux to compare.

I owned the 50 Summicron decades ago, with my only complaint being the need to be careful  to avoid unwanted flare. Otherwise a superb lens, as demonstrated by its extended time in the Leica catalog.  I eventually switched to the Summilux ASPH, which performs much better at f/1.4. 😉 … and is more forgiving regarding flare conditions. It did need servicing, however, to eliminate some sticky focus action.  DAG made it very smooth, thankfully, as it’s my only 50 and does everything I need.  I rented the 50 APO Summicron, but preferred the Summilux.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

2 hours ago, Camaro5 said:

Just did some beautiful golden hour shots of it with my M10 and 50 Cron

Will you be posting some in the M10 image thread?  ....or did I miss them?

[kerschberg]

13 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I wish you had stood in one spot, and shot with one camera, then the other, for the exact same view.

Yes, In hindsight that would have been best and with a tripod.  I think the Voigtlander 35 APO is great and I would get the 50 mm as well, but I already have the 50mm Summilux M.

The shot of the hay and tractor are pretty close.  You dan download the images as DNG files and compare them.

[Camaro5]

10 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I owned the 50 Summicron decades ago, with my only complaint being the need to be careful  to avoid unwanted flare. Otherwise a superb lens, as demonstrated by its extended time in the Leica catalog.  I eventually switched to the Summilux ASPH, which performs much better at f/1.4. 😉 … and is more forgiving regarding flare conditions. It did need servicing, however, to eliminate some sticky focus action.  DAG made it very smooth, thankfully, as it’s my only 50 and does everything I need.  I rented the 50 APO Summicron, but preferred the Summilux.

Jeff

I have a 50mm Summicron V1 from 1974 on my vintage 1986 R4S II film camera.  I make a point of not shooting towards a light source with that one because of the flare.  I like it better on film than on a digital M.  I haven't had any issues with flare on the 50mm Summicron V5 (mine is new) although I've read that it does.  What I need to see for myself is the difference in the images shooting both the 50mm Cron & Lux stopped down.  For automotive work, depth of field is too shallow at f/2 most of the time.  From about 10-12 feet f/4 to f/5.6 is about perfect.  I doubt I would use f/1.4 very much, but I want to see how the Lux would look otherwise.  

[MikeMyers]

On 2/1/2022 at 12:17 AM, Camaro5 said:

Just did some beautiful golden hour shots of it with my M10 and 50 Cron

Will you be posting some in the M10 image thread?  ....or did I miss them?

 

General information question.  I already own a 35mm made in Canada Summilux from the 1960's.  The new Leica 35's are out of my price range.  Have any of you tried the Voigtlander 35mm APO-Lanthar, and what were your impressions?  I suspect it will once again be close to, but not quite the same as, the latest Leica lenses.  For use on an M10, 24 megapixels, how might it compare to my old Summilux?  I guess it would eliminate or minimize problems with flare, but would it be noticeably sharper?  I should add that I love the small size and low weight of the Summilux, and how small the complete camera is.  That's a big plus for staying where I'm at, and not buying a new lens.

[Camaro5]

3 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Will you be posting some in the M10 image thread?  ....or did I miss them?

Some have my license plate number that I don't want to post, but I'll get one or two up when I've down-sized them to the forum size.

 

 

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[Herr Barnack]

Quote

...Before I post this, there was an amazing scene, 1 hour, 10 minutes, and 42 seconds into that video, where David shows a snapshot he took in New York, and a 100% blow-up.  To my eyes, this was what I might have expected from a large format camera - that the M11 did it, was amazing, and one more reason on the "yes" side to eventually buying one...

That pretty well sums up my desire for an M11.  The fact that large format image quality is available in a hand sized camera rather than a microwave oven sized camera is astounding.

Quote

...Unfortunately, "working" and "retired are inversely proportional.  While I was working, I had minimal time, but enough money to buy what I wanted, and now that I'm retired, I have lots of time, but need to be careful about how much I can spend...

Have you thought about the possibility of pulling a Tom Brady and  "un-retiring" for long enough to acquire your copy of the M11 and maybe a 35 APO lens to go with it?