Brown stains after development of underexposed B&W negatives?

[LocalHero1953]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Can anyone tell me why some of my negatives have brown/yellow stains on them after development? It shows up on underexposed negatives, but apparently not on properly exposed ones. The first negative has been processed in Lightroom to make it obvious what I see in the negative in the hand (white balance adjustment, saturation slider far to the right), as scanning seems to reduce its effect. The second image, processed the same way, appears to show little staining.

Details:

• Shot with M4, Summilux-M 35 pre-asph v2
• Delta 400, exposed at box speed.
• I shot four rolls in the past week: 2xTri-X, 2xDelta 400
• All four rolls were processed yesterday in a two-reel Paterson tank: the Tri-X together, then later the Delta 400
• Developed in HC-110 solution B at 20degC, mixed fresh for each batch: 7.5 minutes, inverted at 30s
• Fixed in Fomafix 1+5; the same solution for both batches. 3 mins, inverted at 1 min. 
• Washing: water fill + 5 inversions x3; water fill + 10 inversions x 3; water fill + 20 inversions x3; final wash with fotonal and hang to dry
• Scanned with SL2-S and Macro-Elmarit-R 100 over a Kaiser Slimlight LED panel, auto-exposure.

Other comments:

• I don't see the same staining on any underexposed Tri-X
• I noticed the same effect a few weeks ago when I was trying several different types of film. I have just checked, and between Tri-X, HP5+, TMax 400 and Delta 400, it is only the latter that shows this effect.
• The effect seems to reduce as exposure improves, and appears to go away entirely in properly exposed images.
• To emphasise: I see this staining in the negative with my eye; it is not an artefact of scanning.

Am I making a mistake in my technique? Is this a known issue with Delta that requires different development or fixing times? 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited January 30, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

I have just checked one matter: the slight banding in the staining is aligned with the sprocket holes (less staining in line with the sprocket holes). But is it development, fixing or washing that is at fault? And why only Delta 400?

[Stuart Richardson]

Usually yellow staining on the negative comes from inadequate washing, but the washing technique you describe should be good. How long do you let the water sit in there while you wash? I would suggest leaving the film longer in the wash water in each step, to allow the fixer to diffuse from the film. It can also sometimes come from inadequate fixing.

Either way, I would try refixing the film in fresh fixer, and giving it an extensive wash. See if it is still there.

When you have patterns like this through the sprocket holes, it can be a sign of either too vigorous agitation or too little agitation. Sometimes it is called bromide drag, but that is more when those areas have increased density...not so much with staining. When you say "agitation at 30s", I assume you are agitating every 30s, right? Not that you are doing a semi-stand development?

If all those things are in good shape, I would suspect one of your chemicals is going off. Developer is most likely, but the fixer is also possible. 1 to 5 for 3 minutes sounds a bit short to me. I typically do 1 to 4 with 4 minutes, using two bath fixing so the second bath is always fresh. Do you use a fixer tester? It is generally helpful to let you know when the fixer is at capacity. It can happen quicker than you think with delta/t-grain emulsions.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[LocalHero1953]

Thanks, Stuart, some helpful things to look at.

Washing: I don't let it sit in the water at all - I just invert it the stated number of times then empty. Each inversion+return is about 2 secs, so 5 inversions is about 10 secs in the water, 10 inversions is 20secs, and 20 inversions 40 secs.

Agitation at 30 secs: yes, this is every 30 secs. I do 5 inversions each time.

I have cut and scanned the film, and it would be a faff to refix, but I'll try fresh fixer next time, and longer fixing and washing.

The HC110 concentrate looks a bit yellow compared to when new (a couple of months ago). I thought HC110 was good to last a while as concentrate, but perhaps not. I still have quite a lot to get through!

Is it a general case that t-grain emulsions take more fixing? Does it just take longer, or is there more silver halide to remove?

[mikemgb]

This looks to me to be lack of fixing. I have found that t-grain films in general need more fix time. The fact this happens more to underexposed negatives backs this up, there is more emulsion that needs removing by the fixer so more time is likely needed. 
 

I fix my films visually, after three minutes I open the tank, pull the reels out and look at the film, if it’s clear it goes into the wash, if not it goes back in the fix for another minute or two. 
 

As for your  developer, my HC-110 expired in 2018, looks like mud and still works fine, that stuff lasts forever. Now, the new thinner version I don’t know about, I haven’t used that yet. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited January 30, 2022 by mikemgb

[250swb]

I'd also say insufficient fixing. 

Test your fix and the time needed with the cut off film leader before you throw the leader away. Put a drop of fix onto the emulsion side and see how long it takes to clear, then double it, that should be your fix time. Test your bottle of diluted fixer the same way from time to time to check if it's getting weaker. I don't know if Fomafix is supposed to be any faster than the Ilford Rapidfix I use, but my fix times for pretty well all makes of film is 5 minutes (the only exception is CMS20).

Edited January 30, 2022 by 250swb

[LocalHero1953]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'm a recent returnee to film, and can't remember my previous practice. I started with Ilford Rapid Fixer, which suggests a wide 2-5 minutes range - I think I went for the middle 3.5 minutes. I have switched to Fomafix (cheaper, and I read of no downsides), which just recommends 3 minutes. I hadn't thought much about films that might require longer or shorter fixing times. 

[LocalHero1953]

39 minutes ago, mikemgb said:

This looks to me to be lack of fixing. I have found that t-grain films in general need more fix time. The fact this happens more to underexposed negatives backs this up, there is more emulsion that needs removing by the fixer so more time is likely needed. 
 

I fix my films visually, after three minutes I open the tank, pull the reels out and look at the film, if it’s clear it goes into the wash, if not it goes back in the fix for another minute or two. 
 

As for your  developer, my HC-110 expired in 2018, looks like mud and still works fine, that stuff lasts forever. Now, the new thinner version I don’t know about, I haven’t used that yet. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

My developer doesn't look as dark as that!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[mikemgb]

10 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

My developer doesn't look as dark as that!

Then yours is still almost new and you have nothing to worry about. 😂

Also, with HC-110, if you’re developing several films at the same time you don’t need to mix fresh for each batch, you just need a minimum of 4ml of concentrate per film. I mixed 1L last night and used it to develop 5 films in 3 tanks, the 31.5ml concentrate I used was more than adequate for that.

Edited January 30, 2022 by mikemgb

[Stuart Richardson]

Paul, I would suggest fixing a bit more, as others have said, but also make sure that you allow the film to sit in the wash for at least 10 minutes total time (spread across all the water changes). Inversions and dumping is good, but it is also important that the film has sufficient time in fresh clear water to diffuse out all the fixer absorbed in the film base. Try leaving a film in the wash water for a few minutes after you finished your washing. You might notice that the water has gone pink or blue from residual dye from the anti-halation layer. If so, it can show you how it takes some time for the stuff in the film to diffuse out into the water.

You needn't go crazy with it, but it is a good idea to leave the film in each wash step for 1 or 2 minutes. Just take it from the fix, pour in water, dump, pour in again, dump, pour in a third time, agitate, leave it for two minutes, agitate again and dump, refill, dump, refill, agitate, let it sit for two minutes, agitate, dump and repeat until you have done at least 5 changes. I definitely recommend doing a few fill and dumps initially, to get the main bulk of fixer out, and filling and dumping in between your agitation steps. Each time you fill and dump, it should remove the bulk of the fix that diffused out in the previous step.

As for fixing, two bath fixing is very easy and effective. Just make two bottles with the same normal fix dilution. Standard is typically 1+4 for rapid fixer. Then label the bottles A and B or 1 and 2 etc. Fix two minutes in the first, then two minutes in the second. When your fixer tester clouds up in bath A, take bath B and make it bath A. Mix up fresh fixer for bath B. If you do this, then you can almost never underfix your films. The bulk of the fixing is done in bath A, and any residual silver is removed in bath B. Bath A weakens much more quickly, so bath B always has enough strength to finish the fixing job if bath A is getting weak. As long as you keep track of how many rolls have gone through or test with a fixer tester (a liquid that basically lasts forever), then you basically can't lose. I have standardized on this for years in my lab, and have not had any problems with underfixed film since I started doing it.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[LocalHero1953]

Thank you,  @Stuart Richardson and others. It looks like fixing and washing are where I need to pay more attention. I shall try your practices, Stuart. I shall also try @250swb's test method - sounds neat and simple.

[Ornello]

Underexposed negatives would leave more silver halide in the film, so fixing such negatives would take longer than negatives with heavier exposure. Negatives with greater exposure would have less silver halide, because more of it would have been converted to silver by the developer. Just remember, developer acts on exposed areas, whereas fixer dissolves what's left. The roll needs to be fixed longer!

Edited January 30, 2022 by Ornello

[Ornello]

I use Ilford Rapid Fixer, diluted 1 + 4 (per Ilford recommendation) for film. Use Edwal Hypo-Check to determine when the fixer is exhausted. Use Heico Perma-Wash to accelerate the removal of fixer from the film and speed up the washing cycle. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ornello

[LocalHero1953]

I've just developed two rolls of Delta 400, giving them 4'30" in the fixer instead Fomafix's recommended 3', and allowing extra standing time for washing. It seems to have solved the problem - no brown stains. It may be a misrecollection, but it looked like there was more pink in the wash water than last time!

Edited February 6, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Pyrogallol]

Is there a reason who you don’t wash your films in running water? I thought using “standing” washing by just changing the water in the tank occasionally was if you lived in a desert and didn’t have access to running water?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, Pyrogallol said:

Is there a reason who you don’t wash your films in running water? I thought using “standing” washing by just changing the water in the tank occasionally was if you lived in a desert and didn’t have access to running water?

Because I've always done it this way?🙂
I am using a Paterson double reel tank, and I can't think of a way to get a through-flow of water reliably through the spirals. I remember my father just connected a shower hose to the central twisting thingy. Perhaps I should try that (I have been inverting the tank, not using the spindle). Is that how you would do it?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Pyrogallol]

8 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Because I've always done it this way?🙂
I am using a Paterson double reel tank, and I can't think of a way to get a through-flow of water reliably through the spirals. I remember my father just connected a shower hose to the central twisting thingy. Perhaps I should try that (I have been inverting the tank, not using the spindle). Is that how you would do it?

I use the Peterson hose and filter. The hose fits in the centre of the tank lid and the water goes down the centre core to the bottom of the tank and back out of the outer water exit.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited February 6, 2022 by Pyrogallol

[LocalHero1953]

I shall try that - anything to automate and simplify the work.
Thanks

[Pyrogallol]

Like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144398566491?hash=item219ed3445b:g:O1gAAOSw~eBh~lVw

[250swb]

The Ilford method of film washing is far more efficient and saves a massive amount of water with regard to spiral tank washing

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reducing-Wash-Water.pdf

doing this method and particles of fixer left are down to parts in a billion, no worse than running under flowing water for thirty minutes

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by 250swb