Leica III (Model F) & IIIa (Model G) differences

[romualdo]

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I was under the impression (and according to Laney, p. 71) that the only difference between these two cameras was the maximum shutter speed (III 500th sec & IIIa 1000th sec).

I've just been reading my III/IIIa manuals & have noted on pages 23-24 of the first booklet the following

"It may here be remarked that the model IIIa is provided with a braking spring which damps down the impact of the blind of the focal plane shutter. When the Leica is in constant use the lubrication of the spring is exhausted after some 4000-5000 exposures. This makes itself evident in a tendency of the winding knob to become somewhat harder to turn: the action of the shutter is, however not affected. A trace of oil on the spring, which is at once visible when the lid of the camera is opened, will immediately eliminate this drag in the winding mechanism".

Is this also referring to the earlier III or was this a new feature added to the newer model (IIIa), possibly to accomodate for a higher top end ss (1/1000)?

Also what do they mean by "when the lid of the camera is opened"? is that the top of the camera or the bottom - page 4 of the manual refers to the base as the lid, so this "spring" must be visible via the bottom of the camera based on the extract above. I currently have a film in my IIIa so can't see what they are referring to. Not sure if I can detect any "spring" in my III.

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[jerzy]

IIIa was introduced in February 1935, SN 156201. Brake was from 159000, April 1935. Brake was implemented in all cameras, incl Standard. It is simple brake, U formed spring and a disk with notch. When first curtains is almost fully opened notch press the spring and brakes the curtain. There is no adjustment, adjustable brake was introduced with IIIc and implemented in some postwar II, IIIa and many Sync conversions done n fifties. You may see the brake with bottom cover removed. Later tonight I will post a photo

Edited January 27, 2022 by jerzy

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[jerzy]

completing above information: left upper photo - cameras with no brake, left middle - III and possibly early IIIa with no brake. Disc and upper leaf spring are needed for III, to activate slow speeds escape, middle right - cameras with simple spring brake. Lowest row shows later brake, introduced firstly with IIIc/IIId and accomodated as well in some postwar II and IIIa/IIIb and built into conversions done in fifties. This brake was kept then in all LTMs, including IIIg. It was brake for first, opening curtain only.
Brake for both curtauins has been introduced in M.

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[UliWer]

That's interesting!

When I look at my Leica III (No. 1110xx) - so from 1933 - it looks like this:

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My Leica II (No. 158355 -1935, but before the number 159.000 from which on the brake was introduced) looks - almost - the same:

Both have the brake. It may be built into the camera on occasions when they were in Wetzlar for some CLA or other reasons - both cameras seemed to be unchanged for me up to now.

I had a look into the "Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen" (published as Vidom spezial 10/2010):

Entry no. 48 says: "159001 Einführung des Schnellaufzugs am Bodendeckel, März 1935" (my translation: "Introduction of rapid winder on bottom plate, March 1935" - I think this is the "SCNOO").

No. 49: "159001 Einführung einer Bremsfeder mit Nockenscheibe, März 1935" (my translation: "introduction of a brake with cam disc, March 1935" - I think this is exactly the new brake you show.)

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by UliWer

[jerzy]

interesting indeed. Re entry 49 in Vidom Spezial - it could be that the information is not 100% precise. I just found on the web IIIa 156806 (auction house in Stockholm). It has disc with notch, screws for U spring (however one is different) but no spring. 

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Re your 1110xx - most probably updated during repair, as you mentioned. I have 127159 - it was produced as III, it is now III as well (no 1/1000) but has newest brake (and some other fetaures) indicating significant repair postwar

[UliWer]

40 minutes ago, jerzy said:

most probably updated during repair,

Yes, the disc with the notch looks new and there is a screw on the left to it looking completely new.

My III needed a new shutter curtain which was done not at Wetzlar but by an expert private repair shop. So I think he applied the "novelty".

Also my II had a shutter repair by another private expert.

So it seems that both  "secretly" updated my cameras to the state of March 1935. 

48 minutes ago, jerzy said:

Re entry 49 in Vidom Spezial - it could be that the information is not 100% precise.

This would imply that the makers of the camera were not 100% precise. The Vidom edition is a copy from the handwritten diary of "Leica Montage I" where all minor changements of the Leica from October 1928 to Mai 1945 where listed.

[romualdo]

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9 hours ago, jerzy said:

IIIa was introduced in February 1935, SN 156201. Brake was from 159000, April 1935. Brake was implemented in all cameras, incl Standard. It is simple brake, U formed spring and a disk with notch. When first curtains is almost fully opened notch press the spring and brakes the curtain. There is no adjustment, adjustable brake was introduced with IIIc and implemented in some postwar II, IIIa and many Sync conversions done n fifties. You may see the brake with bottom cover removed. Later tonight I will post a photo

Jerzy, many thanks - beautifully explained - the wealth of knowledge on this board is a true wonder

BTW, my III (SN 110658) has no spring/brake ie no post manufacture modification has been performed

[jerzy]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb UliWer:

The Vidom edition is a copy from the handwritten diary of "Leica Montage I"

Vidom Spezial is great source of detailed technical information and I am cannot thank you enough that you introduced this Vidom to me few years ago. Until then I was only estimation when particular modification has been introduced, Vidom helped me to be more precise in this aspect. However, there is always a "but". Everything is writtern in the same handwriting, by the same person. As Georg Mann stated in the Introduction, he believes that in early postwar years someone took handwritten loose pages from the "Montage" and put them together in one book. I found at least one entry which most probably is not correct, this is entry 107 which says: "Einstellung der Leica Montage Mitte Januar 1944 infloge totalen Kreigseinsatzes". It  says that middle January 1944 production has been stopped because of the war activity.
This conflicts a bit with what Lager wrote about WH Leicas (391xxx series) - at least 16 of them have delivery date in 1944, between March and until December 1944 with delivery place to "Bln" (Berlin). Well, I know from reasearch about IIId that sometimes kameras spent weeks and years on stock before being shipped, but it is hard to believe to me that in 1944 cameras made for special purpose (WH) would spend almost one year in the factory. The same Vidom, in entry 106 says about this WH series but does not have a date assigned.
Therefore I think rather that the entry 107 (stopping production mid January 1944) is not correct and shall be rather January 1945. As far as I know US Army arrived in Wetzlar end of March 1945.
And one aspect more: 159000 (when brake was introduced) was Leica II. We know that SN does not neccessarily goes in line with production date.....
This is what makes it interesting, a bit of mystery and uncertainity 🙂