Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[cboy]

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If Leica could also (along with the lag free global shutter)  reproduce digitally the rangefinder patch similar to how Fuji did the digital split microprism focus then I'm all in!

And they made the body as compact as like the analog CL then I'd 100% certain than people will buy it n droves!

 

[fotomas]

The OVF is the only reason why I spent so much money for an M. If it becomes EVF only I could finally switch to a way cheaper system.

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[Lelmer]

On 1/28/2022 at 10:23 AM, TeleElmar135mm said:

A M is a M and a M has a Messsucher - it's the best way to focus manually. Point.

It's no fun to focus manually with my 21/18/24mm M-Lens on the SL but I like the EVF in the SL with my Apo 180mm or the old Telyt 400mm. But that's physics. The measurement basis (Messbasis in German) is much better in that focal Range. But the M-Lenses are only up to 135mm so the EVF is more worst for manual focusing. That would make the cry for autofocus ... 

Many of  the other Cameras use now a EVF so all the users could have a EVF with their M-lenses - even in a smaller body than the SL-Line

And yes Leica can build a EVF in a M-Body, but then it's no longer a M, it's a E.

But don't mix them a ME is not something many of us (that's a hope) want

How it would be called is a detail...as long as it is M mount 😉

All other EVF cameras are AF, and definitely not optimised for manual focus. I'd hope that, in the case they launch a M (or XYZ) with EVF, they would design it in a way to keep the   MF feeling and pleasure, for more precision and less sensitivity to external parameters.

And yes...it should be cheaper 🙂

[SrMi]

12 hours ago, fotomas said:

The OVF is the only reason why I spent so much money for an M. If it becomes EVF only I could finally switch to a way cheaper system.

I do not think the poll is about replacing the rangefinder line with EVF-only models but adding an EVF-only line while developing the rangefinders in parallel.

[kaisernchen]

Original rangefinder is developed as a solution, not a purpose.  Leica could offer a M camera with built-in EVF, probably a bit cheaper without the complicate and less accurate mechanism for focusing, while still full compatibility with M bayonet and lenses and all lenses with adapter.  Leica can still produce classic M with rangefinder that is no conflict to the one with EVF, as it is in Q, SL, and the next S.   The argument from anyone who is not willing to accept elimination of optical rangefinder is an individual opinion, such individual are much more in number years ago than now, and likely less going forward, as EVF advances. It is a devision to adapt the next technology then staying with the past.  I suppose it is just a matter of time. 

[Karl Heinz Marschner]

EVF is good for lenses, where the aperture is normally fully open, and does not close before the shutter opens. In Germany we call it Springblende. Leica does not offer such lenses. So the EVF will always be a crutch as long as you do not make photos with open aperture.

[insomnia]

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Well you see exactly what shot you get when working with closed apertures and EVF. Of course, you may not want to use f22 if it's pitch black outside, other than that (noise and dropping framerate of EVF) there's no issue with it other than maybe a slightly less reliable focus peaking, but i would always give it a quick zoom-in anyway. You can even overcome issues like focus shift, which can be a challenge with certain lenses on the M. Also it's quite convenient to focus outside the center compared to the M (although that's never really bothered me).

I can definitely see a market for an "EVF only M", which would look something like the original MD from the sixties. A lot of people love adapting the M lenses on the SL-Series. Not all of them like the larger package it comes with. If you price it right (similar to the SL-Bodies or slightly below), a lot of M users might consider this as a second body (with large flexibility) and it might even attract a few new customers who might dive deeper into the brand in the consequence.

Edited September 6, 2022 by insomnia

[JulyLL]

I believe there is a clear market for a well-built M model with EVF and Autofocus. Leica is truly missing a giant opportunity here.....

The latest release of the M6 keeps the original theme of the brand alive, a true film/range finder camera. Perfect for those who want the old feel and tech. 

After speaking to multiple friends I noticed we were all saying the same thing, users want the SL tech inside of the M body without video. 

I believe Lecia can position their camera lines like the following  

SL3 - Offer 2 models, Auto Focus EVF with Video Capabilities, SL3S, 

M - Offer 3 models, Film, Digital Range Finder, EVF/Auto Focus 

Q3 - Offer 3 models, fixed 28mm, 35mm, and 50mm lens - Great entry into the brand and the perfect second cam. 

My final thought is that Leica should offer an M11A just like they offer a monochrome version. There are currently 3 film models and the standard m11 that offers the range finder experience.

 

Let me know your thoughts 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by JulyLL

[pegelli]

An M-camera with EVF and autofocus is in my mind an oxymoron, I believe M-cameras are rangefinder/manual focus and anything else waters down that principle.

What you are saying is that there may be a market for a fourth type of camera, i.e. an SL with an M-camera body shape, M-mount and AF that moves the mount, allthough that would not work really well for FLE type lenses. However I would not call that an "M"camera but an entire new line, and I doubt there would be a big market for that.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by pegelli

[Jewl]

You have everything already in the SL except of the small body. Don't see this for an M. Don't need this in an M. 

It might be even something for the Q except of the interchangeability of the lenses.

But overall, if you really need what you mentioned, you can get it already?!

Don't understand the need to squeeze this into the M ecosystem. In the end you have 3 different products with more or less identical features  

[willeica]

6 hours ago, JulyLL said:

I believe there is a clear market for a well-built M model with EVF and Autofocus. Leica is truly missing a giant opportunity here.....

The latest release of the M6 keeps the original theme of the brand alive, a true film/range finder camera. Perfect for those who want the old feel and tech. 

After speaking to multiple friends I noticed we were all saying the same thing, users want the SL tech inside of the M body without video. 

I believe Lecia can position their camera lines like the following  

SL3 - Offer 2 models, Auto Focus EVF with Video Capabilities, SL3S, 

M - Offer 3 models, Film, Digital Range Finder, EVF/Auto Focus 

Q3 - Offer 3 models, fixed 28mm, 35mm, and 50mm lens - Great entry into the brand and the perfect second cam. 

My final thought is that Leica should offer an M11A just like they offer a monochrome version. There are currently 3 film models and the standard m11 that offers the range finder experience.

 

Let me know your thoughts 

 

 

30 minutes ago, pegelli said:

An M-camera with EVF and autofocus is in my mind an oxymoron, I believe M-cameras are rangefinder/manual focus and anything else waters down that principle.

Maybe there's a market for a fourth type of camera, i.e. an SL with an M-camera body shape, M-mount and AF that moves the mount, allthough that would not work really well for FLE type lenses. However I would not call that an "M"camera but an entire new line, and I doubt there would be a big market for that.

 

I presented both Stefan Daniel and Peter Karbe of Leica AG as speakers at our Leica Society International Conference in Dublin in October and, obviously, this topic came up, more than once.

The Wetzlar people could not be drawn into making definitive statements. Reading between the lines the following considerations would apply

1. An M = Messucher = Rangefinder. Anything without a rangefinder will not be an M.

2. If you are putting an EVF into an M size camera then autofocus would seem to be an possible add on.

3. If autofocus appeared in such a camera then a new lens line would be required. These would be bigger than the current M line and would require considerable development investment. Fuji and others have provided smallish autofocus lenses, but for 'full frame', larger lenses would be needed, think about the Nikon Z line and also Sony's products.

4. Peter Karbe could entertain you all day long about why lenses in the L line are as large as they are and why APO lenses have so many elements and cost so much.

Just as in any other business Leica AG has to carefully consider its product line up and its market strategy. With technology being the way that it is to day, development costs can be considerable. It is clear that any product launch the company makes will have been carefully considered and that 'back of the envelope' thinking is not the way that the company proceeds. However, it does listen to its customers and follows forums like this, but it would be difficult to encompass all of the necessary considerations within an online forum discussion.

William 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by willeica

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, JulyLL said:

I believe there is a clear market for a well-built M model with EVF and Autofocus. Leica is truly missing a giant opportunity here.....

The latest release of the M6 keeps the original theme of the brand alive, a true film/range finder camera. Perfect for those who want the old feel and tech. 

After speaking to multiple friends I noticed we were all saying the same thing, users want the SL tech inside of the M body without video. 

I believe Lecia can position their camera lines like the following  

SL3 - Offer 2 models, Auto Focus EVF with Video Capabilities, SL3S, 

M - Offer 3 models, Film, Digital Range Finder, EVF/Auto Focus 

Q3 - Offer 3 models, fixed 28mm, 35mm, and 50mm lens - Great entry into the brand and the perfect second cam. 

My final thought is that Leica should offer an M11A just like they offer a monochrome version. There are currently 3 film models and the standard m11 that offers the range finder experience.

 

Let me know your thoughts 

 

Users want -that is the catch phrase. Leica needs to draw new users into the brand as the M demographic is aging and just another EVIL camera at Leica price won’t do it -see the CL; a M-like camera, seamless adaptation to M lenses, amazing quality in the purest Barnack tradition, yet the market did not accept it. 

[Knipsknecht]

Just three quick thoughts:

1. I doubt that there is enough "market space" for a rangefinderesque Leica camera with EVF and AF. Yes, a few people would be attracted by such a camera (maybe me, too) but "the market" doesn't seem to wait for such a camera. As far as I can see neither the Fuji X-Pro3 nor the Sony A7C are the cash cows of their parent companies. And the Leica Q is something completely different not just because it's a fixed lens camera but because price wise you get a Summilux lens with a free camera.

2. Unlike Sony, Canon or Nikon, Leica is a small company. As others have already pointed out, a new camera line with EVF and AF lenses would demand reasonable r&d investments into a future product with a rather limited predictable group of consumers. 

3. A Leica EVF/AF camera with its new lineup of AF lenses (hopefully not a big as the SL lenses) would be quite pricey. Who should buy this camera? Die hard fans of the Leica M? Users of the SL lineup? CaSoNikon customers? Why should they buy into such a system?

Personally I would probably like something like a Leica "X-Pro" with a full frame sensor. But from an economical point of view I rather doubt that something like this would become a success story. But maybe some in deep market research would prove me wrong😇.

[Herr Barnack]

The concept of an M camera with EVF seems to be gaining traction - it has certainly been discussed more than a little in these parts.  In thinking about this, I would welcome such a camera provided it does not replace the traditional M camera with manual focus and a true rangefinder mechanism.  

By removing the rangefinder mechanism, replacing it with an EVF and rearranging the internal components, it could be possible to make room for IBIS that some M users long for.  In the end, we could end up with a camera that is a hybrid, somewhere halfway between the Q and the M.  I can't see a down side to having such a camera made available to the Leicaverse, provided it does not replace the traditional M camera with manual focus and a true rangefinder mechanism.

I look forward to the 1000+ pages of observations, discussions, wrangling, debating, discussing and cussing that will inevitably follow.  😁

 

Leica M with EVF: Do we really need this camera?

https://www.macfilos.com/2022/12/07/leica-m-with-evf-do-we-really-need-this-camera/

Edited December 7, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Keith (M)]

Already under discussion here (yet again!).

[Jeff S]

Ad nauseam.

Jeff

[pegelli]

As Keith mentioned it's already discussed elsewhere. Let me repeat what I said there, an M camera without a viewfinder (with framelines) / integrated double image rangefinder will not be an M-camera. Just having an M-mount is not enough to call it as such. If "M"stands for "Messsucher" maybe such a new camera with an EVF might be called the "E" line, or any other letter that's not in use for a Leica series today.

Also I don't think any new camera is "needed", maybe "wanted" or "desired"would be a better term to use in your question

 

[lct]

Ah those battles of words... Call it as you like but a camera using exclusively M mount lenses can hardly be called a W or a Z camera... 

[pop]

19 minutes ago, pegelli said:

an M camera without a viewfinder (with framelines) / integrated double image rangefinder will not be an M-camera.

Yes, quite. The M0 and M1 made by Leica were not M cameras. They were just cameras with model names starting with M.

This is such an important distinction.

As the professor of ancient languages finally proved after spending twenty years of his professional life: the Odyssey was not written by Homer at all, but by another creek whose name happened to be Homer as well.

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[pegelli]

14 minutes ago, lct said:

Ah those battles of words... Call it as you like but a camera using exclusively M mount lenses can hardly be called a W or a Z camera... 

Why not? Voigtländer, Ricoh and Minolta have called cameras with an M-mount differently and even Leica didn't give every camera they made with an M-mount an M-series designation

Edited December 7, 2022 by pegelli