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Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]


FlashGordonPhotography

Survey: Would you buy an EVF only camera with an M mount?  

471 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Leica make a manual focus EVF camera?

    • Absolutely. I'm second in line after Flash.
    • Never! It's the work of the Devil.
    • Hmmm? Not sure. I'd want to see it first.
    • I want one of each. M11 and this new wonder camera!
    • Not for me but I'd be happy if it exists.
    • Does it come in Monochrom?


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It wouldn't be an M or and SL. It'll have it's own letter. A manual focus only M mount mirrorless camera. Same size as the M or maybe the Q2. M11 battery. Q2 evf in the top left corner. 6 bit coding and some auto detection when you focus the lens for viewfinder enlargement.

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I would buy a camera with M mount and an EVF with the form factor of a Leica M in a heartbeat, no matter how it is named as long as it is from Leica. No more hassle with rangefinder misadjustment and lenses wide open. I am also a 50mm guy and like to use it wide open in the evening. An EVF would help focusing a lot. The wart on top of an M is no option due to its size. An M with the Visoflex is even taller than my SL.

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Rangefinder is still the best system ever made for manual focus. Much better than an SLR, much better than an EVF, much better than anything else out there. That’s the reason why I use Leica, because I love the rangefinder experience. My opinion. That being said, I think abandoning the form factor of the SL for a smaller body similar to the M would be a good move for Leica..but please Leica leave the M camera alone and let’s hope we will always have a rangefinder option that stays true to the M lineup. If this stays as is, then Leica can do whatever else they want :)

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I would miss the optical viewfinder for its clarity and simplicity. Occasionally, I’ll put an accessory viewfinder on my SL giving me the M optical and the SL evf.  Leica could do the same with an M11evf, an accessory optical just as they provide an evf for the M. Not unlike the beautiful Barnack’s in the early days.  

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3 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

let’s hope we will always have a rangefinder option that stays true to the M lineup.

As I'm a stickler for focus plane accuracy and despite having been a very strong advocate for such a camera over the years, I've now come to a somewhat opposite PoV to the above. More on that in a moment. In the meantime, I'll just mention that Leica has said repeatedly that the optical RF is going nowhere. I believe them and see no reason to concern one's self with the availability of a traditional RF, save price, for the foreseeable future. 

In terms of the an EVF only camera, I'm in.  In fact I've been in since 2017 when I got on my dealer's list for such a camera if it ever appeared... But over the years of using the SL and M evfs with M lenses, I'd be very disappointed if all the camera turned out to be was a M with the RF replaced by an EVF.  Focusing perfectly stopped down is not possible in my experience. If like me, you're extremely concerned with the point of focus and want to ensure that the lens falls away from that specific plane, then you either have to act as you're own auto aperture control to ensure that you're not being fooled by DoF or we are all going to need some further help, both in terms of the EVF image resolution as well as some focusing aids far more advanced than the current peaking or zoom. 

So what did I mean by opposite PoV?  Given the EVF-only focusing issues, among other things, I plan to continue to shoot with an M, whether an Mevf appears or not. But if a new EVF only camera meant that the M no longer needs to be anything other than an optical RF, count me out. I would not want to see Leica succumb to all the 'lets make photography even harder than it already is' crowd by removing anything thing related to the EVF that the M already possesses.  Where that to happen, I will have bought my last new M. My process honed over the years has been focus via RF, confirm and frame via EVF.  I expect it to remain so right up to the bitter end. 

So I now find myself more concerned that a new Mevf might mean some diminishment of the EVF capabilities currently on offer in the M11 in future generations. If that were the calculation, count me out. But otherwise, assuming Leica's usual standard of excellence, I'd love a Mevf with IBIS as a second body. 

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I have great respect for the engineers and designers at Leica, so if they produced a M-shaped camera with EVF and M-mount, I would certainly look hard at it, because they know how to make a desirable and practical package.

However I have strong doubts about whether I would want one. The choice, in my mind, is between a M-shaped/sized body with an M-mount and one with a L-mount. I am instinctively drawn more to the latter: it could do L-lenses focusing stopped down and, with an adapter, M-lenses focused manually wide open. Far more versatile and forward thinking. I would happily mount Summicron-SL lenses on it, and of course there are Sigmas.

Whether the engineers could provide battery, processing power and heat control for such a camera in a M-shaped body is another matter. I hope so.

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On 1/25/2022 at 9:58 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

It wouldn't be an M or and SL. It'll have it's own letter. A manual focus only M mount mirrorless camera. Same size as the M or maybe the Q2. M11 battery. Q2 evf in the top left corner. 6 bit coding and some auto detection when you focus the lens for viewfinder enlargement.

They might be able to use M-E as M with Electronics, instead of End of the line. 

EVF in the top right corner, because cameras are looked at the front.

Price has to be at least 3K $ less, because EVF are not expensive comparing to RF.

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1 hour ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Price has to be at least 3K $ less, because EVF are not expensive comparing to RF.

Won't happen. This is Leica. Expect that it'll be the same price as an M.

This is the company that charges $400 for a Nissin flash after all.. I'm not complaining. I just think that Leica doesn't do *cheaper*. Not their mojo.

Gordon

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8 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Rangefinder is still the best system ever made for manual focus. Much better than an SLR, much better than an EVF, much better than anything else out there. That’s the reason why I use Leica, because I love the rangefinder experience. My opinion. That being said, I think abandoning the form factor of the SL for a smaller body similar to the M would be a good move for Leica..but please Leica leave the M camera alone and let’s hope we will always have a rangefinder option that stays true to the M lineup. If this stays as is, then Leica can do whatever else they want :)

I would assume the M would stay in it's current form. They'd have to share some tech and parts between the two cameras to make it viable.

Gordon

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A M is a M and a M has a Messsucher - it's the best way to focus manually. Point.

It's no fun to focus manually with my 21/18/24mm M-Lens on the SL but I like the EVF in the SL with my Apo 180mm or the old Telyt 400mm. But that's physics. The measurement basis (Messbasis in German) is much better in that focal Range. But the M-Lenses are only up to 135mm so the EVF is more worst for manual focusing. That would make the cry for autofocus ... 

Many of  the other Cameras use now a EVF so all the users could have a EVF with their M-lenses - even in a smaller body than the SL-Line

And yes Leica can build a EVF in a M-Body, but then it's no longer a M, it's a E.

But don't mix them a ME is not something many of us (that's a hope) want

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I imagine that earlier or later there will be an EVF M. For the first few years maybe alongside with the OVF M so that Leica could drop one or the other over time. 

I have now the M11 and it starts to include functions like cropping that make an EVF necessary. For town vitits or hiking the weight is important to me and I tend to take just 1 lens (probably the 28mm). With cropping I have 35mm and 50mm at the same time with very good resolution. The argument that I could crop in post in Lightroom is not quite accurate as the built in crop funktion includes the management of the RAW sizes that automatically change from M-Raw to L-Raw. A superb solution.

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On 1/27/2022 at 4:12 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Won't happen. This is Leica. Expect that it'll be the same price as an M.

This is the company that charges $400 for a Nissin flash after all.. I'm not complaining. I just think that Leica doesn't do *cheaper*. Not their mojo.

Gordon

You are wrong again. Meitz, not Nissin.

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I'd be second in line, assuming that Leica also kept the traditional M in its product line as I do want the purists satisfied as they probably fund much of the continuity of the M line. We modernists are most likely the tail, not the dog of the M community.

Some of us who have used multiple Ms for years have eyesight that's not nearly as precise as it once was (even with optical viewfinder correction lenses) and an integrated, non-fiddly EVF that isn't an afterthought would be a godsend, as it would for scene preview and better low light shooting. And no more stupid fiddling, either, with lens calibration. (I know, I'm a denier of precious Leica traditions like bullshit calibration. Guilty as charged. But lens calibration isn't part of the "revered M experience" that I cherish.)  

I still want an M-sized small body that has a sensor and micro lenses optimized principally for M lenses, plus all of the other benefits of the current generation of M11 cameras, including simplicity, good enough high ISO, a powerful battery, and 18-36-60 "native" image size choices. Having invested a small fortune in M lenses over the years, I don't want to have to choose between a camera not well-optimized for M lenses with an integrated viewfinder through which I can see and easily focus VERSUS a camera that is optimized for native M lenses but which is increasingly hard to focus precisely because of aging eyesight and which doesn't focus well in low light. An ancillary viewfinder makes the package much more cumbersome, gets dropped or, worse, accidentally lost or left at home. I also use an SL2 and SL2-S with my M lenses, but it really isn't the same. The package is much larger, can't fit in a large jacket pocket, and lens performance is better than the alternatives, but not what an M can deliver.

Nevertheless, I doubt that Leica would introduce such a product. It is a very small, financially-constrained company, with limited resources to invest in parallel product lines and in the all important Leica bling business for celebrities and middle eastern potentates. Keeping the purists happy should be among Leica's highest priorities, given shrinking global camera markets. At least the purists can be counted on to keep buying Leica unless Leica abandons its core traditions (like abandoning the M mount (as they did with the wonderful R mount)--which would likely be fatal to the loyalist base.

I'd love an EVF M but doubt that it is economically or politically viable in today's camera market. 

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4 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

You are wrong again. Meitz, not Nissin.

I am often wrong but not this time.

Leica no longer uses Metz to manufacturer their flash guns. The SF 40 and SF60 are made by Nissin. The last Leica flash made by Metz was the SF64 which was discontinued over two years ago.

And it's Metz, not Meitz. In 2015 the company became insolvent abd was plit in two and sold off. The new owners of the flash side have to date not realized the same maket success that the original company did. In 2019 Leica moved from the now Dutch owned company to an agreement with Nissin to produce hotshoe flashes and a wireless controllerfor the company. The SF40 and SF60 are identical to the Nissin i40 and i60 flashes except for the TTL system.

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  • JulyLL changed the title to Leica M11A with EVF & Autofocus?
  • jaapv changed the title to Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]
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