Leica M9 — your next camera?

[Leos]

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On 1/26/2022 at 9:23 PM, Adam Bonn said:

For merde and mirth 😇 part two!

 

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So what are you looking at here then?

Well the exact same M10 shot (the second is a virtual copy)

One has the M10 adobe standard profile, the other... well with the other, I took the M11 adobe standard profile, cut out the parts downstream from the forward matrices, ditched the LUT and pasted it into the M10 adobe profile 😅

Amazing what a difference the profiles that the RAW apps give us makes with the so called camera colours isn't it?

and FYI, no - 99 times out of 100 it's far to oversaturated to be a valid profile - but fun to try nevertheless

 

You are aware that the road is getting red tint on the edited photo, right ?  

[Adam Bonn]

38 minutes ago, Leos said:

You are aware that the road is getting red tint on the edited photo, right ?  

I didn't edit the photo at all.

I just made a little dcp hack to show how much dcp controls what we like to call camera colours

I did write that in the post you quoted.

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[Adam Bonn]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:38 PM, Daedalus2000 said:

I think he just likes to make jokes and to start threads that challenge the M11 progression, but I am sure he will get one at the end.

I completely agree with you on all your points. I had an M9 and yes the colors were popping and it felt that (in part at least) it was due to the limited DR. I also did not find the Cobalt CCD M9 profile, very M9 like.

I could not understand how you decomposed the Adobe profiles in your previous message, is there any link that describes the different parts of a profile?

BTW, personally I found the reds and greens from the camera used in the image below to be the best I ever saw (using LR profiles). I wonder if anyone can guess what camera this is.... (sorry for limited depth of field, the light was low)

 

To decompose a DCP file you'll need to convert it into a human readable format.

dcamprof and dcptool both offer this function (and of course to turn it back into a dcp file afterwards!).

The former renders dcp into the json format and the latter into xml

of the two, json is much easier on the eye, but xml is a lot more tolerant of any little error you might make typing into it.

The adobe dng spec (here) will tell you what all the parts do and how they're calculated.

As a helicopter view a std adobe dcp file is

2 x color matrix

2 x forward matrix

2 x hue sat delta tables

1 x LUT

The color matrices control the mapping of the standard illuminants to camera RAW colours

the forward matrices perform chromatic adaption from the standard illuminants to the D50 white point

the hue sat delta tables are kinda/a little bit like the HSL tool in a RAW app (and it's this part I swapped over in the example above)

the LUT is a look up table, that.. well it's a little complicated, it controls how the hues behave when being stretched 

In case it's of interest... For further reading about how profiles work I'd suggest 

http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/DCP FIles.html

http://www.lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/#profile_theory

(and of course the dng spec linked above)

Sorry I've no clue which camera you used in your picture!

[Daedalus2000]

47 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

To decompose a DCP file you'll need to convert it into a human readable format.

dcamprof and dcptool both offer this function (and of course to turn it back into a dcp file afterwards!).

The former renders dcp into the json format and the latter into xml

of the two, json is much easier on the eye, but xml is a lot more tolerant of any little error you might make typing into it.

The adobe dng spec (here) will tell you what all the parts do and how they're calculated.

As a helicopter view a std adobe dcp file is

2 x color matrix

2 x forward matrix

2 x hue sat delta tables

1 x LUT

The color matrices control the mapping of the standard illuminants to camera RAW colours

the forward matrices perform chromatic adaption from the standard illuminants to the D50 white point

the hue sat delta tables are kinda/a little bit like the HSL tool in a RAW app (and it's this part I swapped over in the example above)

the LUT is a look up table, that.. well it's a little complicated, it controls how the hues behave when being stretched 

In case it's of interest... For further reading about how profiles work I'd suggest 

http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/DCP FIles.html

http://www.lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/#profile_theory

(and of course the dng spec linked above)

Sorry I've no clue which camera you used in your picture!

Thank you very much, I really appreciate that you took the time to explain and give me some links.

It was the Leica S2, i.e. an M9 on steroids.

 

[Adam Bonn]

2 minutes ago, Daedalus2000 said:

Thank you very much, I really appreciate that you took the time to explain and give me some links.

no trouble at all, FWIW... I made a crazy long post about some of all of this somewhere in the m11 your next camera thread

About a year ago I set myself the task of learning a bit about how dcp files work as it just seemed to me that we all like certain cameras and certain RAW apps (even though our choices are different, the principle is the same) but clearly there's a bunch of stuff going on under the hood in LR/etc and I wanted to understand it better to try and see if I could get more control over the process (answer: yeah a little bit I guess)

 

[Crowmagnon]

Been using m246 and m9 monochrom for a while.. just dusted off my old  m9. I'm like Wow!!!

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Edited July 3, 2022 by Crowmagnon

[setuporg]

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I love the punchy colors of the M9, and the lively greens!

[mydarkroom]

This is a very inspiring thread and photographs.

I have a M9 and M9M. Unfortunately, both have developed corrosion problems after the Leica replacement period. Shooting anything close to F4 all the spots ruins the image. I got sad that I am mainly using my wife's Leica Q. Not the same experience. 

I am still struggling to decide whether to get a new M11 or send the M9 and the M9M for repair at Kolari. I see the love for the M9/M9M here and agree with most of the comments. Sending both for repair would cost 1/3 of what a new M11 would cost. However, I would spend around CAD 4,500 to repair a 14-year-old camera, if the cameras are not ruined completely in the repair process. Would it make more sense to keep them the way they are (I would never sell them anyway) and use them with wide-open lenses to avoid seeing the spots, save some more cash to get an M11, or fix them and forget the M11?

Any more ideas, words of wisdom and advice? Any recent experience with the Kolari repair? 

Thanks, Rafa

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by mydarkroom
added info regarding Kolari disclaimer and risk of damaging the camera forever

[costa43]

Its a classic, one I’ve just sold! I packaged up my m9p 3 days ago and shipped it off to its new owner. It was just not getting used and I always reached for my m10r. For the money they go for, I couldn’t justify keeping it. I still have the m9m and m8u though for now! 

[PhoToad]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb mydarkroom:

...

I am still struggling to decide whether to get a new M11 or send the M9 and the M9M for repair at Kolari. I see the love for the M9/M9M here and agree with most of the comments. Sending both for repair would cost 1/3 of what a new M11 would cost. However, I would spend around CAD 4,500 to repair a 14-year-old camera, if the cameras are not ruined completely in the repair process. Would it make more sense to keep them the way they are (I would never sell them anyway) and use them with wide-open lenses to avoid seeing the spots, save some more cash to get an M11, or fix them and forget the M11?

Any more ideas, words of wisdom and advice? Any recent experience with the Kolari repair? 

Thanks, Rafa

 

I don't own an M9 nor an M11, but this is what I would do if my M240-P would fail: I would try to get it repaired although its technology is now 10 years old. I think I would do it for up to approx. 3000 Euros (which is more or less equivalent to 4500 CAD) and would refrain from buying an M11 (maybe some lens(es) instead). For me, I see no need to get the latest model as long as my trusted current camera can be repaired at (for me) more or less reasonable costs.

Hope that helps in your decision.

[sdk]

Sold my M9-P years ago. It's a decent camera, if you can find one with a replacement sensor (mine did corrode, and Leica replaced it before I sold it). But my favorite lens for the M series when I owned the M9-P ws the Zeiss 35mm/1.4 Distagon ZM, which obscures quite a bit of the viewfinder of the M9 and other bodies without an EVF. So I got a Leica M-P (typ 240) with an Olympus EVF, and used that for many years until I got an M11 and Visoflex II EVF last August.

I can't imagine going back to an M9 with its corner color shifts with wide-angle lenses, and lack of EVF or Live View. The M9-P was not good at high ISO speeds so it was not great for low light use unless you put it on a tripod and did long exposures. The color rendition of the my M9-P was not accurate especially with wideangles. I color calibrate all my cameras using Calibrate's Color Checker cards (originally Color Checker Passport, now Color Checker Digital SG), and the M11 can be very accurate with that profiling. I mostly shoot landscapes, and I do not want color to be exaggerated most of the time.

I use the M11 with EVF most of the time, for critical focus and composition, especially when I do multi image shooting to make triptychs, tetraptychs, pentaptychs, etc. The EVF is a huge step up in usefulness over the one for the Leica M-P, which was not great for critical focus, but was fine for aiding overall composition. The M11 is very good at high ISOs and you can get away with shooting handheld in low light conditions that the M9 series would not do well in. And the resolution of the M11 can extract an extraordinary amount of detail at ISO 64 with a good lens (now my favorite is the Voigtländer 35mm/2 Apo Lanthar). To me the M11 is the best camera Leica has ever made. It just works how I want it to and imposes fewer limitations than my M9-P or M-P camera did.

But photo tool choice is a personal thing, and the M9 series can be used to make good images if you know its limitations and don't need to go beyond them.

[setuporg]

6 hours ago, sdk said:

But photo tool choice is a personal thing, and the M9 series can be used to make good images if you know its limitations and don't need to go beyond them.

The original post was meant as a joke on the interminable "progress", but your usage -- EVF and landscape panoramas -- seem to call for an X2D!:)

City photography with available light and M9 is still awesome.  Also a feeling that you don't need to care about the latest and greatest.  I consider lack of EVF a feature, and many other such limitations become fun features for those who like Leica quirks.  Screenless and B&W Leicas are clearly in the same category.  But with the M11-P, I might've finally succumbed to the try and see call...:)

[Ne314satel]

On 10/27/2023 at 8:21 PM, sdk said:

Sold my M9-P years ago. It's a decent camera, if you can find one with a replacement sensor (mine did corrode, and Leica replaced it before I sold it). But my favorite lens for the M series when I owned the M9-P ws the Zeiss 35mm/1.4 Distagon ZM, which obscures quite a bit of the viewfinder of the M9 and other bodies without an EVF. So I got a Leica M-P (typ 240) with an Olympus EVF, and used that for many years until I got an M11 and Visoflex II EVF last August.

I can't imagine going back to an M9 with its corner color shifts with wide-angle lenses, and lack of EVF or Live View. The M9-P was not good at high ISO speeds so it was not great for low light use unless you put it on a tripod and did long exposures. The color rendition of the my M9-P was not accurate especially with wideangles. I color calibrate all my cameras using Calibrate's Color Checker cards (originally Color Checker Passport, now Color Checker Digital SG), and the M11 can be very accurate with that profiling. I mostly shoot landscapes, and I do not want color to be exaggerated most of the time.

I use the M11 with EVF most of the time, for critical focus and composition, especially when I do multi image shooting to make triptychs, tetraptychs, pentaptychs, etc. The EVF is a huge step up in usefulness over the one for the Leica M-P, which was not great for critical focus, but was fine for aiding overall composition. The M11 is very good at high ISOs and you can get away with shooting handheld in low light conditions that the M9 series would not do well in. And the resolution of the M11 can extract an extraordinary amount of detail at ISO 64 with a good lens (now my favorite is the Voigtländer 35mm/2 Apo Lanthar). To me the M11 is the best camera Leica has ever made. It just works how I want it to and imposes fewer limitations than my M9-P or M-P camera did.

But photo tool choice is a personal thing, and the M9 series can be used to make good images if you know its limitations and don't need to go beyond them.

I also have M9-P and M11. My M9-P sensor has completely failed electronics after 12 years and 50,000 shots. The sensor needs to be completely replaced; repair is not possible. About the color - on the M11 it is more accurate, but on the M9 the color is brighter and more beautiful)

[setuporg]

4 hours ago, Ne314satel said:

I also have M9-P and M11. My M9-P sensor has completely failed electronics after 12 years and 50,000 shots. The sensor needs to be completely replaced; repair is not possible. About the color - on the M11 it is more accurate, but on the M9 the color is brighter and more beautiful)

(Nechitatel:) Wow some serious use!  That's the exact scenario I had in mind, M9 vs M11.  Expecting the M11P soon and will be able to compare how punchy the colors are.  Given the complaints about too much color in M11 before, I have a feeling they will be good!:)

[Ne314satel]

On 10/31/2023 at 9:45 PM, setuporg said:

(Nechitatel:) Wow some serious use!  That's the exact scenario I had in mind, M9 vs M11.  Expecting the M11P soon and will be able to compare how punchy the colors are.  Given the complaints about too much color in M11 before, I have a feeling they will be good!:)

My experience is M9 vs M11 - the color is very similar (but not the same), it’s amazing how the processing of the Sony sensor made it look like the Kodak colors. And with M11 0.95 Noctilux began to work better (focus), although my favorite is still 35/1.4. m11p is absolutely the same as m11. A couple of things, but the color hasn't changed.
If the M11 had not been made by Leica, I would have bought a Hassel)

Edited November 1, 2023 by Ne314satel

[setuporg]

4 hours ago, Ne314satel said:

If the M11 had not been made by Leica, I would have bought a Hassel)

Well I got X2D first so now is the time to compare them all!  Also with different 35 APOs…

[Ray Vonn]

21 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Well I got X2D first so now is the time to compare them all!  Also with different 35 APOs…

Seeing as your appreciation of the good old M9 pretty much mirrors mine, I very much look forward to your informed comparison.