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SL3 with M11 sensor?


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15 hours ago, jrp said:

I occasionally toy with the idea of getting a Sony A1 or Nikon Z9 for their autofocus capabilities, but the SL2 manages OK for 99% of what I shoot.  The Sony E-mount lens lineup is starting to look tempting, if you can get a GM in real life.  But when I look at the results of my shoots, there is little to wish for.  The 24mm and  21mm Summicrons are in that little.

SL2 higher ISO performance is also a limitation.  The IBIS performance means that I rarely need to move from ISO 100, even hand held; I don't need to use Auto ISO as I did on the SL.

The main benefit of a 60Mpx sensor would, I suspect, be a reduction in moire.  It's interesting to see that folks that have the M11 are discovering that it's not really compatible with the rangefinder style of shooting (it has no IBIS and the lenses are designed for 24Mpx sensors, other than the likes of the unobtainable 35mm APO); who shoots a rangefinder on a tripod??

I briefly had a Sony A7R4, and while the sensor was very good, it did have a blue bias. I also noticed, that even with Sony IBIS, I still needed higher shutter speeds due to sensor resolution. This was on V1 firmware for the camera, so the Sony IBIS may have improved. RF at 60mp, without IBIS, wil need at least twice the shutter speeds used at 25mp to prevent pixel level motion blur. The SL2's IBIS is quite a bit better than the (in camera only) Sony IBIS, so an SL3 at 60mp would be quite a camera! 

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On 3/23/2022 at 1:08 AM, MrFriendly said:

I think the real interesting L camera is the Sigma fp L.  It has pretty much the same sensor as the M11, but in a smaller package, and it has an optional EVF for those of us who prefer an LCD screen over an EVF/OVF.  And I think it uses PDAF.  I would really like to try it, and I wouldn't be surprised if, with the next update to the fp L, Sigma decides to includes an IBIS.  I just hope Leica decides to make the SL3 much lighter and smaller than the previous generations.

The Fp-L is an interesting L-mount body for its minimal base size. It is difficult to use in certain situations - outdoors in sunlight with only the LCD for focusing/composition, indoors in artificial due to its lack of a mechanical shutter. The OVF is great but huge. The EVF is good but not equal to the SL series and somewhat wonky in its attachment method. The camera does yield excellent files in good light and gives you the ability to project an image from a wide array of Leica lenses onto a 61MP sensor. I do not currently own SL lenses and use it primarily in manual focus. Using Sigma DG DN lenses, I have not noticed the hybrid AF providing significant improvement over the original Fp. I have rented a Summicron-SL 35 for next week to test on my SL2-S and will mount it on the Fp-L for comparison.

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On 3/28/2022 at 3:23 AM, Photoworks said:

correct, they said they are working with Profoto to come out with a compatible trigger...

The Leica flashes are made by Nissin, but there are internal differences ..

Leica SL has no problem with the high speed sync and with the brands like Einstein, Brancolor, Godox etc. Work pretty well in the studio.

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10 hours ago, Alan Friedman said:

The Fp-L is an interesting L-mount body for its minimal base size. It is difficult to use in certain situations - outdoors in sunlight with only the LCD for focusing/composition, indoors in artificial due to its lack of a mechanical shutter. The OVF is great but huge. The EVF is good but not equal to the SL series and somewhat wonky in its attachment method. The camera does yield excellent files in good light and gives you the ability to project an image from a wide array of Leica lenses onto a 61MP sensor. I do not currently own SL lenses and use it primarily in manual focus. Using Sigma DG DN lenses, I have not noticed the hybrid AF providing significant improvement over the original Fp. I have rented a Summicron-SL 35 for next week to test on my SL2-S and will mount it on the Fp-L for comparison.

The major problem of the FP-L is that the camera has not upgraded the processor, if it is 4x quicker then the camera can use in many more situations. 

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10 hours ago, Reddy said:

Leica SL has no problem with the high speed sync and with the brands like Einstein, Brancolor, Godox etc. Work pretty well in the studio.

Yes High Speed Sync with SF-60

and Manual mode (noTTL or HSS ) with studio lights. HSS needs a communication with the camera and at this point there are not triggers that can do that.

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22 hours ago, Planetwide said:

RF at 60mp, without IBIS, wil need at least twice the shutter speeds used at 25mp to prevent pixel level motion blur.

That's slightly misleading. It's not an issue in daylight, because your shutter speed is already very high. It's also not an issue if you don't make larger prints with the M11 than you did with your 24MP M. "Subjective blur" will be the same, unless you use a magnifier to view your prints. Of course, it's not an issue if you don't make prints, because no normal electronic display can resolve 60MP (yet).

That leaves some situations where you'll get more blur with the M11, mostly low-light shots that you intend to print very big, and where you can't brace the camera. Those were tricky before, and they are tricky now. One positive aspect of the new sensor is that you can raise your ISO by at-least a stop, compared to 24MP-generation Ms (m240, M10), so you have some extra leeway with shutter speed.

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22 hours ago, Planetwide said:

I briefly had a Sony A7R4, and while the sensor was very good, it did have a blue bias. I also noticed, that even with Sony IBIS, I still needed higher shutter speeds due to sensor resolution.

I had the A7RIV for a few months, never used a higher shutter speed compared to the A7III I had before. This is on V1 of the firmware too.

The IBIS on the SL2 is better, but not by a significant amount. I had them side by side for a while, little to no difference in normal day to day use. 

FYI people hand held the 100mp Fujis too.

Maybe the problem is not IBIS, but personal stability / shaking hands / etc, and there's no fixing that.

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22 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

I had the A7RIV for a few months, never used a higher shutter speed compared to the A7III I had before. This is on V1 of the firmware too.

The IBIS on the SL2 is better, but not by a significant amount. I had them side by side for a while, little to no difference in normal day to day use. 

FYI people hand held the 100mp Fujis too.

Maybe the problem is not IBIS, but personal stability / shaking hands / etc, and there's no fixing that.

Well you must be a superhuman of stability compared to all the experienced M11 shooters out there. My video friends were surprised to hear that their impressions of the Panasonic stabilization being 2 stops better than the Sony was all wrong... Or its a case of believing what you want to believe.

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Posted (edited)

Personally I don’t have need for 60mp. The idea of dealing with the increased volume of data doesn't appeal either. My priorities for features in a future camera in the professional SL line would be:

 

Rugged, no-nonsense design of the original SL. 4 Button layout. PC sync terminal connector. Bulletproof tethering. Best in class high ISO performance.

 

The SL 601 has served me well as a dependable tool. With unreliable tethering being the only unforgivable flaw in an otherwise fantastic camera for stills.

 

I liked the initial direction the SL system had taken which positioned it more closely in line with the professional S system.

 

Reading many of the requests for various new features and things like flip out screens that are often posted, I wonder if it would be better to divide the SL / L-mount line up? By creating two very different SL / L-mount bodies in the future.

 

A professional SL camera body that retains the strength and practical simplicity of the S series. And another consumer / prosumer oriented mirrorless camera body with more features, shooting aids and (fragile) flip out screens.

Edited by J12
typo
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1 hour ago, Planetwide said:

Well you must be a superhuman of stability compared to all the experienced M11 shooters out there. My video friends were surprised to hear that their impressions of the Panasonic stabilization being 2 stops better than the Sony was all wrong... Or its a case of believing what you want to believe.

I never mentioned the M11, which I have never used and probably never will. What does the M11 have to do with the A7RIV and the SL2? 

Also please reread what I wrote: I said the SL2 stabilization is better, but I couldn't see any particular difference in DAY TO DAY use. There will be specific cases where the SL2 bonus will be vital.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/4/2022 at 9:53 PM, Photoworks said:

Yes High Speed Sync with SF-60

and Manual mode (noTTL or HSS ) with studio lights. HSS needs a communication with the camera and at this point there are not triggers that can do that.

We did studio shooting last two Fridays, let me check what trigger the SL2 use again. That's strange even the S1H can use normal trigger.

Edited by Reddy
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1 hour ago, Reddy said:

That's strange even the S1H can use normal trigger.

Panasonic triggers are out there. There are no Leica compatible trigger, other can be used to fire the flash with center pin. 

Panasonic and Leica don't have the same connectors.

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10 hours ago, J12 said:

Rugged, no-nonsense design of the original SL. 4 Button layout. PC sync terminal connector. Bulletproof tethering. Best in class high ISO performance.

OH NO! Finally the different systems have the same Botton configuration...
Tethering is more the function of you computer software and Capture one works great with SL2

10 hours ago, J12 said:

And another consumer / prosumer oriented mirrorless camera body with more features, shooting aids and (fragile) flip out screens.

why do you think a tilt screen in not robust... I never see one ripped off from any of the other camera companies 
I think better would be a camera that doesn't loose the paint after a week and a company that can service cameras and lenses in a week.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with J12...I prefer the four button line up of the original, but then again I have been in the S system for ten years now... I don't know if it is because my eye/hand setup is not typical, or just because of design, but I do not get on all that well with the current M/SL/Q button layout. I am left handed and left eye dominant, and for whatever reason, the four button layout was a lot more logical and customizable to me than the current layout. I really liked being able to press and hold to activate my most common functions in each of the four corners (WB, Exposure compensation, focus type and drive mode, usually). This was quicker and easier than it is in the current SL2 or Q2 for me. I get why Leica harmonized this, but I think by doing so they bring the controls down to the lowest common denominator, rather than adapting the controls to camera, which is quite different in all cases. The SL2 is designed like a small SLR and has room to the left and right of the screen with the viewfinder in the center, while the Q2 and M are cameras where the VF is at the far left and both are smaller and shorter, which changes the control configuration. I think having SLR like controls in the S and SL made sense, and RF style controls in the M and Q...doesn't make as much sense to have RF style controls in the SL series (and still SLR controls in the S...). 

And I would like a PC sync port, though it is not something I am incredibly bothered by. Still, useful to have on a professional camera. As of now I use a Profoto remote in the hotshoe, but it is nice to have the hotshoe free for something else at times.

As for a tilt screen. I also don't really care if there is one, but also would not object to one being added, if it can be done elegantly. The one in the S1 works well, but is rather bulky. If they did it so that it was either flush with the body or otherwise able to be ignored most of the time, then I would be ok with it. I agree with Photoworks that it is not really such a big thing to worry about. While I doubt they are truly robust, I also doubt that there are many situations where you would be likely to tear one off either...as long as you could keep it secure against the body, it seems like it would be just fine.

 

Edited by Stuart Richardson
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23 hours ago, J12 said:

My priorities for features in a future camera in the professional SL line would be:

Rugged, no-nonsense design of the original SL. 4 Button layout. PC sync terminal connector. Bulletproof tethering. Best in class high ISO performance.

I liked the initial direction the SL system had taken which positioned it more closely in line with the professional S system.

A professional SL camera body that retains the strength and practical simplicity of the S series. 

I'd also prefer the four-button design if it retained the default, function-button display. I'd also like a screen flush with the body without a tilt screen. But at this point, I think the only material thing lacking is best-in-class high ISO performance.  

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Posted (edited)
On 4/4/2022 at 9:53 PM, Photoworks said:

Yes High Speed Sync with SF-60

and Manual mode (noTTL or HSS ) with studio lights. HSS needs a communication with the camera and at this point there are not triggers that can do that.

Back in studio on the Friday night, I have checked with the guy on his SL2 and SL2-S, those work with the Godox trigger, and the trigger CyberSync below can work with the Einstein. However, this trigger cannot with work his medium S camera and he has another Godox trigger. 

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Edited by Reddy
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1 hour ago, Reddy said:

Back in studio on the Friday night, I have checked with the guy on his SL2 and SL2-S, those work with the Godox trigger, and the trigger CyberSync below can work with the Einstein. However, this trigger cannot with work his medium S camera and he has another Godox trigger. 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

yep just like the other out there it is only manual mode. no TTLS or HSS

it is fine for in studio shoots where you set the power and keep it consistent the full shoot.

TTL would be useful in outdoor shooting where the lighting changes often.

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On 4/6/2022 at 9:21 AM, Photoworks said:

OH NO! Finally the different systems have the same Botton configuration...
Tethering is more the function of you computer software and Capture one works great with SL2

why do you think a tilt screen in not robust... I never see one ripped off from any of the other camera companies 
I think better would be a camera that doesn't loose the paint after a week and a company that can service cameras and lenses in a week.

 

I can understand the sentiment regarding unified controls across the different Leica camera bodies.

 

However, having buttons on the right side of the screen makes it very easy to use the SL 601 quickly and effectively when working under pressure.

 

The two buttons on the right of the screen used in combination with the thumb stick and function wheel are all within quick reach of the right thumb.

 

Using your right thumb to access those buttons, you can do more without altering your grip on the lens and camera body or removing your eye from the viewfinder.

 

In practice this means it’s a very quick and seamless experience lining up shots, adjusting settings, navigating menus and reviewing images in the viewfinder. Not having to adjust your grip or move your eye and being able to alternate between shooting, adjusting and reviewing so quickly means the camera is great for fast paced scenarios.

 

When you have more time and wish to use the rear screen to go through menus, settings and review images, it feels very natural to be holding the camera body with both hands and use your left and right thumbs in tandem to quickly access settings and navigate menus.

 

It’s intuitive and is easy to build coordinated (left / right) muscle memory with the SL 601’s 4 button interface. And this makes use of the camera very efficient with a little practice.

 

 

That’s great to hear tethering is reliable with the SL2. I only have experience with tethering on the SL 601. I tried every trick in the book from removing both SD cards, changing computers and software to no avail. Always lost connection at some point in a session. (Not good when a team of people involved and waiting on you.)

 

 

That’s a fair question regarding flip out screens. Concern is they could snag on things or fold out when you don’t want them to. (Thinking about working under pressure in crowded / tight situations where that can happen.) If wanting an external monitor I’d prefer a modular approach where it could be added when needed, and removed when not. Benefit being it could be larger and more configurable that way. 

 

I have yet to see an integrated flip out screen I like. But perhaps need to visit some camera stores and take another look before dismissing them completely. Because the EVF has been so good on the SL the rear screen has become a low priority for me. 

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On 4/6/2022 at 9:50 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

And I would like a PC sync port, though it is not something I am incredibly bothered by. Still, useful to have on a professional camera. As of now I use a Profoto remote in the hotshoe, but it is nice to have the hotshoe free for something else at times

 

I see the PC sync port as a fail safe backup. As you say, it's also useful to be able to keep the hot shoe free for other things. In dense urban areas and some studios I've experienced interference or issues with various triggers on occasion. Having a PC sync port built into the body can be a life saver in those situations. Hardwired you can be very sure it will work, should you have to resort to that. 

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