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SL3 with M11 sensor?


V23

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33 minutes ago, V23 said:

With M11 variable sensor Mp count there seems to be a naturel progression to introduce this technology into SL3 what are your thoughts?

I don’t think a 60 MP SL3 would be a big enough differentiator to the existing SL2. Curiously enough, I was going back to an old talk that Peter Karbe did last year on the SL lenses where he discusses a rule of thumb for matching optimal lens resolving power and sensor resolution to get the best balance from an imaging system. He used 4 sensor resolutions as example for arriving at the ideal lens resolving power which included 24 MP, 40 MP, 60 MP, and 100 MP. I didn’t think much into this when I first watched it last year but it’s starting to make sense in that 24 MP is reflective of the M10 and SL2-S, 40 MP is reflective of the M10-R, the SL2 sits in between 40MP and 60MP. Looking back now however, it makes sense that the 60MP represents the M11.

If I had to guess, the next spec bump is more likely to be 100 MP. Whether for the M12 or more likely the SL3. There have been rumors that Sony already had a 100 MP full frame sensor (IMX555CQR) in 2019 and there are additional rumors that we’ll see a 100 MP Sony Alpha camera this year. It wouldn’t surprise me if Leica has a 100MP camera on the roadmap. With all that said, I think the current Maestro 3 processor may not insufficient to handle the amount of data coming out of a 100 MP sensor so they will probably need time to develop a Maestro 4 processor to support such high resolutions. Given the current supply crunch for silicon, I suspect development of the Maestro 4 is probably running behind schedule. In normal years, it often takes 3-4 years to develop a new custom processor, even if you license IP from other fabless silicon designers so if Leica were to determine that 100 MP is the next goal post in sensor resolution, I don’t imagine we’ll see an SL3 with a Maestro 4 processor until very late 2022 at the earliest, or more likely sometime in 2023.

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51 minutes ago, threeseed said:

60MP M11 sensor would be a major update to the SL2 since it has similar dynamic range/high-ISO performance as the SL2-S sensor.

Given the diminishing returns in going to higher MP it would make sense for Leica to "drag it out" and re-use the M11 sensor.

A 60 MP SL2-R could be interesting. :) 

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vor einer Stunde schrieb BernardC:

I agree. It's not enough of a change for a new camera, but the 60MP sensor could go into a new version of the SL2. I would be surprised if the 47MP sensor was still in production after 4 years.

especially this sensor is BSI, which may be more important than the difference 47MP to 60MP

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3 minutes ago, MediaFotografie said:

especially this sensor is BSI, which may be more important than the difference 47MP to 60MP

Panasonic's 47 MP camera still tests better than Sony's 60 MP camera (according to DxO). That's to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but perhaps there isn't much IQ gain, if any, to be had from switching to a Sony 60MP sensor. Of course, we don't know for sure that Leica uses this sensor, it could be a 60MP Panasonic sensor, or something else entirely. After all, BSI is a generic descriptor. It wasn't invented by Sony Semi, and they aren't the only company to make this type of sensors.

I think we'll get our answer when/if Panasonic announces the S1R replacement.

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6 hours ago, BernardC said:

Panasonic's 47 MP camera still tests better than Sony's 60 MP camera (according to DxO). That's to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but perhaps there isn't much IQ gain, if any, to be had from switching to a Sony 60MP sensor. Of course, we don't know for sure that Leica uses this sensor, it could be a 60MP Panasonic sensor, or something else entirely. After all, BSI is a generic descriptor. It wasn't invented by Sony Semi, and they aren't the only company to make this type of sensors.

I think we'll get our answer when/if Panasonic announces the S1R replacement.

Panasonic stopped making their own sensors a few years ago. 

And the specs of the M11 sensor match up exactly with the Sony tech specs. Very likely it’s one and the same.

We do know that the SL2-S has substantially better low light performance than the SL2 and the SL2-S sensor is the same family as the M11 one. 

So Leica would be crazy not to release an SL2 upgrade. 

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I think that the next step has to include a processor of the Sony A1, Canon A3 and Nikon Z9 generation to improve autofocus performance / real time subject recognition, as that is the feature on which the SL line lags in comparison to its near competitors.  While the M11 line has a unique rangefinder, the SL line's USP is fantastic lenses, but Sony and the others are catching up: the 50mm f1.2 GM exceeds the performance of the M 50mm APO (at the expense of bulk) and there is no sign of the 21 and 24mm Summicrons, much less a broader range of lenses, that space having been taken by Sigma.

Yes, 60Mpx is nice for the satisfaction of pixel peeping, but it doesn't help unless you are regularly producing massive prints.  Low light performance would be the second priority for me.  The SL2 produces great landscape pics, but struggles with indoor pictures of people.

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16 hours ago, threeseed said:

Panasonic stopped making their own sensors a few years ago. 

And the specs of the M11 sensor match up exactly with the Sony tech specs. Very likely it’s one and the same.

Wasn't Panasonic making sensors in a JV? As far as I know, that company is still around, although I don't know the capital structure.

The Leica sensor matches-up exactly with Sony's, except for: no PDAF, different pixel count, different ISO range, different real-world performance, etc... I don't know who fabs the M11 sensor, but my main point is that it doesn't really matter. Panasonic makes great sensors, Sony Semi makes great sensors, Canon makes great sensors, Samsung makes great sensors, other companies do as well. The differences are tiny, nothing like the huge difference between Agfa, Fujicolor, and Kodak in the film days.

As things stand, if Leica released an "SL2-R" with Sony's sensor, we would lose some dynamic range and gain a little at high ISO (but not enough to make it competitive with the SL2-S). Logically, the best solution would be a new generation of the 47MP sensor, which would improve both ISO and DR!

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4 minutes ago, frame-it said:

Interesting. They make BSI sensors, and sensors for Arri!

That certainly dispels the notion that "it's BSI, therefore it must be Sony Semi." It also explains why the 47MP sensor has the best DR of any full-frame sensor, since the Alexa sensor has the best DR of any cine sensor.

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Am 21.1.2022 um 16:37 schrieb BernardC:

Panasonic's 47 MP camera still tests better than Sony's 60 MP camera (according to DxO). That's to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but perhaps there isn't much IQ gain, if any, to be had from switching to a Sony 60MP sensor. Of course, we don't know for sure that Leica uses this sensor, it could be a 60MP Panasonic sensor, or something else entirely. After all, BSI is a generic descriptor. It wasn't invented by Sony Semi, and they aren't the only company to make this type of sensors.

I think we'll get our answer when/if Panasonic announces the S1R replacement.

here's a comparison in dynamic range between SL2 and M11 - showing the advantage of the new BSI sensor

 

 

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12 minutes ago, MediaFotografie said:

here's a comparison in dynamic range between SL2 and M11 - showing the advantage of the new BSI sensor

For all we know, they are both BSI sensors. Tower Semi makes BSI sensors, and many people think that the 47MP SL2 sensor comes from them.

The chart shows the usual advance over one sensor generation (4 years): slightly more dynamic range and slightly higher sensitivity. Not a huge amount, but enough to show-up on a graph. That's exactly what we would expect.

However, it should be taken with a grain of salt, especially if you add the S1R to the chart (which allegedly uses the same sensor as the SL2).

PtP is a "home testing kit." No two measurements are made in the same conditions: lens, monitor/calibration, room illumination, temperature, etc.. Furthermore, they don't even measure the whole DR in one shot, because no display has that much DR. The S1R matches the M11 better than it does the SL2, which is unexpected. Maybe the M11 and S1R use the same sensor, with a slight tweak to highlight rolloff? Or maybe they don't have enough measurements for the SL2? This would explain why the SL2 graph has 1/4 of the data points.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. Measured differences are barely noticeable over the whole ISO range. 1/3 stop was considered the smallest significant difference in the analog days (I did my fair share of sensitometry in uni, having access to a darkroom and a densitometer). I really doubt that a DR difference of "11.37" vs. "11.19" is worth bothering with. There are other factors that have more impact.

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2 hours ago, MediaFotografie said:

here's a comparison in dynamic range between SL2 and M11 - showing the advantage of the new BSI sensor

 

 

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This figure is a bit misleading as the SL2 DR curve is about 1 stop lower than the Panasonic S1R. That suggests Leica did something to tweak the SL2 sensor and decided to sacrifice some DR as a trade-off to some other parameter that we may not be fully aware of. 

If you were to compare the M11 and SL2 sensors against the Sony a7Riii, a7Riv, and a7iv, the SL2 sensor is clearly underperforming in DR and the M11 is mid-pack with the current state of the art.

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Taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture, I’m pretty certain that DR is not dependent only on the sensor. There are other aspects that can affect DR such as power filtering, sensor configuration and sampling configuration, and imaging processing pipeline, and much more. The power filtering that supplies power to a sensor in particular can make a huge difference in sensor performance as clean power can result in lower noise floor which improves dynamic range. Some of this depends on the sensor itself as it may have additional power circuitry to filter the input power source while others may lack power filtering completely and it’d be up to the system integrator (i.e. Leica) to deal with the power filtering outside the sensor.

 

Another big one is PCB and flex cable routing, and component layout and/or shielding. Poor routing and layout decisions/choices, whether it is forced due to size/volume constraints, or unforced and just due to poor design choices, can also impact sensor performance. If there are electrically noisy components near sensitive areas or components, this can also impact noise performance. For example, if a sensor is sensitive to magnetic interference and is not properly shielded, when the IBIS motor kicks in, this can raise the noise floor. This is not something that would be easily discovered in the development phase when sensors are being evaluated and tested without all the other components nearby that would otherwise be in place for a fully developed camera and by the time it gets discovered, it may be too late to make large changes to the system design. All of this adds up so it’s indeed possible that there was something inherent in the SL2 electrical design in combination with the sensor used, that made the SL2 perform more poorly than the S1R. 

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7 hours ago, BernardC said:

The Leica sensor matches-up exactly with Sony's, except for: no PDAF, different pixel count, different ISO range, different real-world performance

All of those aren’t to do specifically with the sensor itself.

Leica we have always known customises the sensors eg. adds micro lens array and has their own custom control systems, autofocus system, processor, processing pipelines, power supplies so no one has ever said the specs will be identical. The SL2-S is from the same sensor family as the M11 one and we know there are differences between SL2-S and Sigma FP but many similarities.

But right now Sony is the only company who has an announced 60MP sensor you can buy. And since it’s the same family as the SL2-S one it seems like it could be a drop in replacement.

 

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19 hours ago, beewee said:

All of this adds up so it’s indeed possible that there was something inherent in the SL2 electrical design in combination with the sensor used, that made the SL2 perform more poorly than the S1R. 

It's also possible that the SL2 curve is an outlier. That would explain why it has 1/3 the data points of other cameras.

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15 hours ago, threeseed said:

But right now Sony is the only company who has an announced 60MP sensor you can buy. And since it’s the same family as the SL2-S one it seems like it could be a drop in replacement.

Tower Semi doesn't publish sensor specification for sensors "you can buy," so that doesn't rule them out. There's no exclusivity on BSI, or on 60-ish MP, and we don't know for sure that the M11 and SL2-S come from the same fab, or even who makes the SL2-S sensor. There's no evidence, other than circumstantial. We are all free to speculate, of course.

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