Leica Tech Talk on the M11 - Jan 20 2022

[M Journey]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The Leica tech talk in the m11 just concluded. They talk about the sensor and colors quite a bit:  

 

 

[SrMi]

There is an incredible wealth of information in this talk. Here are some key points:

• Lower resolution is better for buffering (endless with 36MP mode).
• No degradation in image quality when using a lower resolution, unlike other manufacturers (12 bit instead of 14 bit, getting slower).
• Compatibility with old lenses has improved, there is more space inside the camera.
• Highest DR of all M cameras (ISO 64).
• Dual gain technology helps with DR (ISO 64 and between ISO 200 and 400)
• No major product update within the next year.
• John Kreidler says that the colors are reminiscent of S cameras, the colors are getting better and better.
• Going to a lower resolution mode means less noise in the shadows (better DR). The same effect can be achieved with 60MP if you reduce the resolution in post.
• Leica works closely with Adobe and Capture One. Capture One already has a profile. In Adobe you can use Adobe Standard or embedded M11 Profile (more saturated). Recommend using Adobe Standard for high ISO.
• The new shutter is 10ms slower, not noticeable in practice. Shutter lag is longer with the electronic shutter; use the mechanical shutter for the shortest lag.
• Better flare resistance with M11, more room inside, not much where the light can reflect. Situations where M10 would show reflections and ghost effects may be eliminated with M11.
• There is no difference in color reproduction depending on the resolution.
• High ISO performance (ISO 6400) vs. the competition: clear and strong advantage in color rendition at high ISO in the finest details. If you are looking only at ground noise level, you will not see much difference.
• Had long discussions about rangefinder accuracy with 60MP. Ten years ago would have said not possible, but it turned out to be working very well.
• Incredible battery life, especially compared to previous models; not running live view when metering saves power.

Edited January 21, 2022 by SrMi
Corrections are bold.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[LeicaS2]

Things I learned:

The improvement in tighter rangefinder tolerance is carried over from the M10.

The metering system does not use as much battery as one would assume. Leave the camera on.

The reds are much more true. Closer to the S.

Consider a night shot going one to three stops underexposed and adjusting in post.

The cover IR and UV filter is very thin and very custom to this sensor.

[dkmoore]

I’ve seen a few conflicting reports in regards to the no degradation in IQ at lower resolution settings (red dot and Reid reviews I believe). I think one of our fellow members reported similarly. Will be curious to see that tested a bit more. 

[M Journey]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

 

There is an incredible wealth of information in this talk. Here are some key points:

• Lower resolution is better for buffering (endless with 36MP mode).
• No degradation in image quality when using a lower resolution, unlike other manufacturers (12 bit instead of 14 bit, getting slower).
• Compatibility with old lenses has improved, there is more space inside the camera.
• Highest DR of all M cameras (ISO 64).
• Dual gain technology helps with DR (ISO 64 and between ISO 200 and 400)
• No major product update within the the next year.
• John Kreidler says that the colors are reminiscent of S cameras, the colors are getting better and better.
• Going to a lower resolution mdoe means less noise in the shadows (better DR). The same effect can be achieved with 60MP if you reduce the resolution in post.
• Leica works closely with Adobe and Capture One. Capture One already has a profile. In Adobe you can use Adobe Standard or embedded M11 Profile (more saturated). Recommend using Adobe Standard for high ISO.
• The new shutter is 10ms slower, not noticeable in practice. Shutter lag is longer with the electronic shutter; use the mechanical shutter for the shortest lag.
• Better flare resistance with M11, more room inside, not much where the light can reflect. Situations where M10 would show reflections and ghost effects may be eliminated with M11.
• There is no difference in color reproduction depending on the resolution.
• High ISO performance (ISO 6400) vs. the competition: clear and strong advantage in color rendition at high ISO in the finest details. If you are looking only at ground noise level, you will not see much difference.
• Had long discussions about rangefinder accuracy with 60MP. Ten years ago would have said not possible, but it turned out to be working very well.
• Incredible battery life, especially compared to previous models; not running live view when metering saves power.

 

Thanks for the list.  I think the m11 will only get better as users get familiar with the new technology and other changes.  I was surprised to hear them say that there won't be any major camera updates (such as a new Q or SL series camera) this year.  Sounds like they spent all their R&D on the M and will now start working on other projects.  They mentioned that the m11 took three years to develop.  It actually made me even more excited about the m11, even though it has already launched and I already have one...I think it will take me the full 5 year product cycle and beyond to even get close realizing the potential of this camera.  Of course I'm starting from zero so M veterans will be able to utilize all the new upgrades much sooner.

[M Journey]

59 minutes ago, LeicaS2 said:

Things I learned:

The improvement in tighter rangefinder tolerance is carried over from the M10.

The metering system does not use as much battery as one would assume. Leave the camera on.

The reds are much more true. Closer to the S.

Consider a night shot going one to three stops underexposed and adjusting in post.

The cover IR and UV filter is very thin and very custom to this sensor.

I was also intrigued about their comment about underexposing and pushing in post.  Makes it seem like its better to stay below 800 ISO, keep shutter speed fast enough to keep photos sharp and just underexpose by a few stops if necessary.  With post the final result should be better than properly exposing and using a higher ISO.

I saw quite a few people typing Kodochrome Red" in the live chat.  I haven't been doing photography to appreciate this but it seems like kodochrome was a film or camera type back in the film days?

[dsm21]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Jesko also mentioned, selecting lower resolution in camera vs taking a 60MP file then down res in Lightroom provides the same noise and dynamic range benefits. 
 

I gathered that the lower res options are more of a space saving feature than anything else. Since the same benefits can be had in post.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by dsm21

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, dsm21 said:

Jesko also mentioned, selecting lower resolution in camera vs taking a 60MP file then down res in Lightroom provides the same noise and dynamic range benefits. 
 

I gathered that the lower res options are more of a space saving feature than anything else. Since the same benefits can be had in post.  

The other benefit is that the buffer never gets full if you are shooting continuously.

[SrMi]

17 minutes ago, M Journey said:

I was also intrigued about their comment about underexposing and pushing in post.  Makes it seem like its better to stay below 800 ISO, keep shutter speed fast enough to keep photos sharp and just underexpose by a few stops if necessary.  With post the final result should be better than properly exposing and using a higher ISO.

I saw quite a few people typing Kodochrome Red" in the live chat.  I haven't been doing photography to appreciate this but it seems like kodochrome was a film or camera type back in the film days?

I don't remember that, but it makes sense.
The noise in the image is determined mainly by the exposure (shutter speed and aperture), not ISO. Therefore, it is OK to 'underexpose' with ISO as long as you do not reduce the exposure (shutter speed and aperture). It also helps with preserving highlights. That approach works for DNGs and requires some work in post.
Kodachrome was a famous film.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

• ... not running live view when metering saves power.

This is great for those who were freaking out over the metering running full-time – rangefinder mode is still a power-saving benefit.

[M Journey]

13 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I don't remember that, but it makes sense.
The noise in the image is determined mainly by the exposure (shutter speed and aperture), not ISO. Therefore, it is OK to 'underexpose' with ISO as long as you do not reduce the exposure (shutter speed and aperture). It also helps with preserving highlights. That approach works for DNGs and requires some work in post.
Kodachrome was a famous film.

at the 1:08:55 mark.  John says he normally sets the ISO based on what gives the proper exposure, but then references Nathan's experience of underexposing and not having to push the ISO as much.  Let me know what your thoughts are from what he is saying.  Of course almost everything is theoretical until more testing and user experiences can provide data on how to best master this sensor and how the m11 processes images.

[John Smith]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

 

There is an incredible wealth of information in this talk. Here are some key points:

• Highest DR of all M cameras (ISO 64)..

I think it was the highest DR of any color M to date. Look @29:16. Convinced me to trade in my M10R.

Edited January 21, 2022 by John Smith

[M Journey]

12 minutes ago, John Smith said:

I think it was the highest DR of any color M to date. Look @29:16. Convinced me to trade in my M10R.

If you consider that if you keep the m11 for 10 years, and it costs you 2k above the trade in of your m10r to get the 11, its only 54 cents a day for 10 years to have the m11.  Also, since the m11 is 18 months or so newer than the m10r, you can think of it as just paying 2k to extend the life of your camera for 18 months and you get the newest model. 

For those that just purchased a m10r recently its not great, but for early adopters, its a blessing that Leica hasn't lowered the cost of the 10r.  This reduces the loss from the trade in.

You can also sell your m10r now for the maximum value, wait a few months and pick up a used m11. you might actually break even or maybe just pay a few hundred bucks to flip your used m10-r for a used m11.

 

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

 

• Better flare resistance with M11, more room inside, not much where the light can reflect. Situations where M10 would show reflections and ghost effects may be eliminated with M11.

@adan  As you wished.  At about the 57 minute mark in the stream, Jesko notes how the elimination of the light meter provided more space and decreased flaring and ghosting compared to the M10.  Congrats.

Jeff

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, M Journey said:

at the 1:08:55 mark.  John says he normally sets the ISO based on what gives the proper exposure, but then references Nathan's experience of underexposing and not having to push the ISO as much.  Let me know what your thoughts are from what he is saying.  Of course almost everything is theoretical until more testing and user experiences can provide data on how to best master this sensor and how the m11 processes images.

I have no qualms of setting ISO two stops lower than what metering says, as long as I keep the slowest shutter speed and widest aperture appropriate for the situation. I would not underexpose by increasing the shutter speed unnecessarily.

[M Journey]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I have no qualms of setting ISO two stops lower than what metering says, as long as I keep the slowest shutter speed and widest aperture appropriate for the situation. I would not underexpose by increasing the shutter speed unnecessarily.

Yes I agree.  underexposing is only when there is a need to set a higher ISO in order to get the shutterspeed and aperature you want for the shot.  Either push ISO when taking the shot or push exposure compensation in post.  

Did anyone catch what ISO they said is where the image quality will start to degrade?  I think the video mentioned 600 or 800, but I've read or heard somewhere that the base ISO is 64 and 200.  So wouldn't anything above base ISO start to degrade the quality?

[SrMi]

53 minutes ago, M Journey said:

Yes I agree.  underexposing is only when there is a need to set a higher ISO in order to get the shutterspeed and aperature you want for the shot.  Either push ISO when taking the shot or push exposure compensation in post.  

Did anyone catch what ISO they said is where the image quality will start to degrade?  I think the video mentioned 600 or 800, but I've read or heard somewhere that the base ISO is 64 and 200.  So wouldn't anything above base ISO start to degrade the quality?

Highest DR is at the base ISO 64. They said that dual gain kicks in between ISO 200 and ISO 400. That likely means that ISO 300 has lower DR than ISO 400, but I would not pay attention to the difference. In the case of M11, dual-gain conversion lifts DR of all ISOs above ISO 400. Maybe the DR vs. ISO looks similar to Sigma fp-L or Sony a7rIV.

[John Smith]

12 hours ago, M Journey said:

If you consider that if you keep the m11 for 10 years, and it costs you 2k above the trade in of your m10r to get the 11, its only 54 cents a day for 10 years to have the m11.  Also, since the m11 is 18 months or so newer than the m10r, you can think of it as just paying 2k to extend the life of your camera for 18 months and you get the newest model. 

For those that just purchased a m10r recently its not great, but for early adopters, its a blessing that Leica hasn't lowered the cost of the 10r.  This reduces the loss from the trade in.

You can also sell your m10r now for the maximum value, wait a few months and pick up a used m11. you might actually break even or maybe just pay a few hundred bucks to flip your used m10-r for a used m11.

 

I should have said that it convinced me to trade in my M10R, provided that I'm offered a good trade-in value. The M10R is a phenomenal camera. Having 40MP in a rangefinder is just insane. I bought it thinking it was the last M that I'd ever buy. But, as usual, Leica hasn't made things easy. The M11 has 60MP, but the M10R is cleaner in the lower ISOs (according to he who must not be named). The M11 has a new color array, but the M10R's colors are just as gorgeous. The M11 has a new battery, but the M10R's battery really is fine. And its menu system is so simple. The SL2 is actually my main camera. I know many in the forum don't like Leica's move to a more mirrorless system for the M, but that is what is pushing me toward the trade in. The M11 would be more complementary to the SL2 than the M10R. And I wouldn't be surprised if Leica implements the same type of sensor/color array in an SL3.  As heretical as it sounds, I might also trade in my M10M. It also is a phenomenal camera, but its look is so different from the SL2's B&W.

[charlesphoto99]

Do you think the average well heeled user here at LUF will be keeping an M11 for ten years when so many can't even hang onto a 10R for a year? Ha! More like  a year and a half until the P version comes along or three or four until the M12 - the best M camera ever! That's when I might consider a used 11. 

Also, please let us know which dealers are giving a $7K trade in on 10Rs! More like $5k at most. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by charlesphoto99

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Rick in CO]

13 hours ago, Jeff S said:

At about the 57 minute mark in the stream, Jesko notes how the elimination of the light meter provided more space and decreased flaring and ghosting compared to the M10.  

Does this mean the elimination, or at least diminution, of the "red flag" effect seen with lenses like the 21mm f4.5 ZM Biogon?