1938 Elmar 5cm - I read it can cover 120 - 6X6 Format , Is it True ?

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

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I heard Elmar 5cm can cover 6x6 format ? Is it true or what is the maximum size format it can take ? If it can cover 6x6 , I want to create a camera for it !!

Thank you,

Umut

Istanbul

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Mustafa Umut Sarac

[frame-it]

where did you hear that? or are you talking about the Leitz Berg-Elmar?

Edited January 19, 2022 by frame-it

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[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

4 hours ago, frame-it said:

where did you hear that? or are you talking about the Leitz Berg-Elmar?

I had been read in an discussion on APUG Forum years ago. I am talking about screwmount Leitz Wetzlar Elmar 5 cm which can be on all III series Leica cameras.

[romanus53]

try it out, build your own camera obscura around it: some black cardbord an something to act as a screen behind, focus on infinity and you can guess about image-circle

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

19 minutes ago, romanus53 said:

try it out, build your own camera obscura around it: some black cardbord an something to act as a screen behind, focus on infinity and you can guess about image-circle

I prefer to hear from experts , due to omicron , simplest need is a hardship.

[nitroplait]

The design objective was to make a tiny lens for a tiny camera. I somehow doubt the Leitz designers would make the image circle larger than necessary, as it would work against their objective.

I would think the likelihood of medium format coverage would be higher for a 90mm as that is the standard focal length for that format and the optical design could theoretically have been repurposed for 35mm. Same can be said for 135mm and large format coverage.

As @romanus53 notes, it can be easily verified by a primitive camera obscura - some leftover cardbord and som waxed paper. If you can't find materials for that, how will you make a camera?

[250swb]

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6 hours ago, Mustafa Umut Sarac said:

I heard Elmar 5cm can cover 6x6 format ? Is it true or what is the maximum size format it can take ? If it can cover 6x6 , I want to create a camera for it !!

Thank you,

Umut

Istanbul

 

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the 10.5cm (105mm) Elmar? In line with what @nitroplait has said it would be a longer focal length that would cover medium format. The 10.5cm Elmar was a derivative of the 'Mountain Elmar' and was used on Vollenda 6x9cm 620 folding cameras.

[willeica]

15 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the 10.5cm (105mm) Elmar? In line with what @nitroplait has said it would be a longer focal length that would cover medium format. The 10.5cm Elmar was a derivative of the 'Mountain Elmar' and was used on Vollenda 6x9cm 620 folding cameras.

The 10.5cm Elmar was used for the Nagel Recomar. It is more likely to have followed the design of the 10.5cm f4.5 Zeiss Tessar as it is quite a bit larger than the Mountain Elmar. I have a copy of the 10.5cm Elmar in a Compur mount. I will post a photo of it later.

William 

[luigi bertolotti]

Years and years ago I had a 6x6 Durst enlarger with Componon 80mm : mounted a 5cm Elmar onto and it didn't focus the whole neg : i seem to remember that coverage did improve clearly stopping down (not strange) but not sufficient for my Rolleiflex negatives.

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Years and years ago I had a 6x6 Durst enlarger with Componon 80mm : mounted a 5cm Elmar onto and it didn't focus the whole neg : i seem to remember that coverage did improve clearly stopping down (not strange) but not sufficient for my Rolleiflex negatives.

Luigi , do you remember the sharp frame size ?

[250swb]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

The 10.5cm Elmar was used for the Nagel Recomar. It is more likely to have followed the design of the 10.5cm f4.5 Zeiss Tessar as it is quite a bit larger than the Mountain Elmar. I have a copy of the 10.5cm Elmar in a Compur mount. I will post a photo of it later.

William 

No you are wrong, it was used on the Vollenda, I have one in front on me. It is mounted on a Kodak Compur shutter on a Vollenda 620 body, the serial number of the Elmar is 113473

[a.noctilux]

I don't know for Elmar 5cm.

however,

Marco Cavina proved that the Tele-Elmar 4/135 can cover  6x6

link here

 

[UliWer]

You may remember that a 50mm lens would be a strong wide angle for 6*6 and would need a special design to cover the corners of the frame which the 50mm Elmar has not. Standard focal length for 6*6 started at approx. 80 mm. So you should look for lenses in this region or longer to achieve full covering of the frame.  

[willeica]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

No you are wrong, it was used on the Vollenda, I have one in front on me. It is mounted on a Kodak Compur shutter on a Vollenda 620 body, the serial number of the Elmar is 113473

You may well have one on a Vollenda 620 as they were supplied to Nagel. However, most of the production was intended for the Recomar as this chart compiled by Hartmut Thiele from the Leitz Delivery records shows.

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Here is my 10.5cm Elmar No 104666 from the batch 104260 - 104741 which was intended for the Recomar and is also marked 300 St.

I have a Nagel Vollenda 48 and two Pupilles with the 5cm f3.5 Leitz Elmar lens. I also have a Welta Weltini II with the same lens. In the 1930s there was a lot of 'cross trade' of lenses and other parts in the German photographic industry, principally based around shutters made by Deckel and Gauthier. Dr August Nagel played a significant part in this as did Deckel, Gauthier and Zeiss

A lot of the literature on this subject is in German. On 30th January I am giving a Zoom talk to the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain on the subject of German cameras of the 1920s and 1930s with 'Compur type' shutters. I am hoping to expand my knowledge on this with the experts in PCCGB as there is very little written in English on this subject.

William 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by willeica

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

32 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

I don't know for Elmar 5cm.

however,

Marco Cavina proved that the Tele-Elmar 4/135 can cover  6x6

link here

 

I have Hektor 4.5/135 , can it cover 6x6 also ?

[a.noctilux]

Out of curiosity, as I never thought of using the Elmar 5cm on my Xpan.

I have a device * to try some lenses if it covers 24x65 Xpan format.

Just tried out the 5cm on the "device".

Not easy as the short about 28mm's flange focus to infinity...untill now I tried with SLR lenses (about 40-47mm).

First observation, it can do about 55mm of coverage, not bad for lens coping with 43mm coverageof 24x36.

 

*crude one ...long hood with at one end translucent paper with field markings as 24x65mm and 43x43mm

 

Mustafa,

you can build this crude "camera obscura" with a tube (plastic/carton/etc. not too long for Leica lenses, about 3cm long! ) then try out with lenses you have.

Have fun with your project.

Edited January 19, 2022 by a.noctilux

[UliWer]

1 hour ago, Mustafa Umut Sarac said:

I have Hektor 4.5/135 , can it cover 6x6 also ?

Here is a thread (in German) with examples from the Hektor on 6*6 - no problem at all:

 

[250swb]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

You may well have one on a Vollenda 620 as they were supplied to Nagel.

 

Ah, that's good to know, I was beginning to doubt what I'd said. I guess they are rare but a Google search shows they are a thing, not a figment of my imagination.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

19 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Here is a thread (in German) with examples from the Hektor on 6*6 - no problem at all:

Wonderful information my friend , thank you very much for this.

Naturally , I might ask how to shorten tube size of hektor 135 ? I looked to the hektor on mamiya tlr and there is no focusing ring and tube of hektor there .

How can I disassemble the lens to shorten the tube ? And how would it possible to focus the lens with thiis setup on mamiya ?

And it talks about possibility of 9x12 ? Is it possible ?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Mustafa Umut Sarac

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[willeica]

1 minute ago, 250swb said:

Ah, that's good to know, I was beginning to doubt what I'd said. I guess they are rare but a Google search shows they are a thing, not a figment of my imagination.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

I note that your one has the Kodak name on the Compur. I have a Pupille and a Vollenda with the Kodak name on the Compur. Dr Nagel continued to work for Kodak after the takeover and he designed the Retina and the 35mm reusable cassette. Some of the early Retinas have a similar depth of field scale on a round plate to that found on some Vollenda 48s and also on the Pupille. In essence Nagel cameras became Kodaks. I will be covering this in my upcoming talk.

William