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Confusing EVF display implementation


Stef63
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First of all I might be wrong or I might miss something.

I have a M11 with Visoflex 2 EVF.  I am used to the EVF behaviour on an SL2 where the rear display shows the menu and shows the captured images when pressing the play button.  Rest of the camera experience is through the EVF  

I expected the same functionality on the M11 especially in EVF extended mode, where the manual says EVF is for capturing photo’s and rear display for the rest.  Pressing Menu shows indeed the menu on the rear display, pressing Play shows the captured images.  When the EVF detects my eye in proximity the EVF is activated automatically.  So far so good. This works as expected if and only if you define one of the Fn buttons  as a “live view” button.   If you do not assign one of the three buttons as a live view activation button, raising the EVF to your eye does nothing.  As of the M11 decides to always stay in non live view mode when the button is not assigned.  Regardless of the display mode. 
 

I can understand the reason for a live view activation button when the M11 has no EVF mounted and you rely on the rear display for live view, but it makes no sense to me as there is no need for a dedicated live view button when EVF extended mode is activated since the proximity sensors in the Visoflex 2 can do the same job as pressing the live view button.

I had 3 useful functions for the Fn buttons in mind but I loose now one for live view that in case of the EVF mounted is by default on.

Q what do you guys think or what am I missing?

Edited by Stef63
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15 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

Save power. M11 default not sending LV to LCD or EVF. 

I do not understand.  If I have a Fn button assigned to activate LV and I do not have my eye close to the EVF resulting in the EVF being off, how would I save power by NOT having a Fn button assigned to activate live view?  EVF will be off in both cases and not consuming power. 

Edited by Stef63
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6 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

 I do nu understand.  If I have a Fn button assigned to activate LV and I do not have my eye close to the EVF resulting in the EVF being off, how would I save power by NOT having a Fn button assigned to activate live view?

EVF and LCD are feed from same input signal. They are default to not active. (even sensor is on for meter) 

It is unrelated to how you set fn button but do you enable LV? (as SrMi replied you that you can active this by quick menu)

Edited by ZHNL
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36 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

Yes that is also what I did now (loosing one Fn button) but what is the reason for a dedicated LV on/off button as there is a proximity sensor on the EVF?  It offers the same functionality automatically. 

RF mode (rangefinder mode) uses much less battery. Most M owners use their camera in RF mode and switch to LV only when needed.

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9 hours ago, Stef63 said:

First of all I might be wrong or I might miss something.

I have a M11 with Visoflex 2 EVF.  I am used to the EVF behaviour on an SL2 where the rear display shows the menu and shows the captured images when pressing the play button.  Rest of the camera experience is through the EVF  

I expected the same functionality on the M11 especially in EVF extended mode, where the manual says EVF is for capturing photo’s and rear display for the rest.  Pressing Menu shows indeed the menu on the rear display, pressing Play shows the captured images.  When the EVF detects my eye in proximity the EVF is activated automatically.  So far so good. This works as expected if and only if you define one of the Fn buttons  as a “live view” button.   If you do not assign one of the three buttons as a live view activation button, raising the EVF to your eye does nothing.  As of the M11 decides to always stay in non live view mode when the button is not assigned.  Regardless of the display mode. 
 

I can understand the reason for a live view activation button when the M11 has no EVF mounted and you rely on the rear display for live view, but it makes no sense to me as there is no need for a dedicated live view button when EVF extended mode is activated since the proximity sensors in the Visoflex 2 can do the same job as pressing the live view button.

I had 3 useful functions for the Fn buttons in mind but I loose now one for live view that in case of the EVF mounted is by default on.

Q what do you guys think or what am I missing?

If you are trying to get the rear screen to always display the live view except when you are in menus or using the EVF, set the display to auto to toggle the EVF when you trigger the sensor.  Set the function to live view, click to turn on live view, then hold the FN button and set it to something else.  That will keep live view as always on unless you are using the EVF.  If this is not what you want then sorry.

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I don’t think you’re understanding the OP.

What he’s asking is: why can’t the Visoflex proximity sensor function as a LV button.

No feed to LCD or EVF. When you bring your eye to the EVF, the proximity sensor starts the LV. There’s no extra drain on the battery. No nore than needed to power the proximity sensor every 1/Nth of a second as it normally is.

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3 hours ago, orcinus said:

I don’t think you’re understanding the OP.

What he’s asking is: why can’t the Visoflex proximity sensor function as a LV button.

No feed to LCD or EVF. When you bring your eye to the EVF, the proximity sensor starts the LV. There’s no extra drain on the battery. No nore than needed to power the proximity sensor every 1/Nth of a second as it normally is.

Because when you bring your eye the the rangefinder it will activate the EVF. They're too close together for this not to happen. More so for left eyed shooters. When I'm looking through the RF with the EVF attached I don't want the EVF shining a bright light into my eye. And no, I'm not going to need to have to remove the EVF to use the RF. The new design makes it less cumbersome to keep the EVF in place all the time.

The M11 is first and foremost a rangefinder. EVF usage is secondary. It is an M not an SL2. Users who want that experience know which camera to buy. The M11 has three customisable buttons the M10 had zero (it had non customisable LV and magnification buttons). I'm just glad we got two plus live view.

I suppose we'll be complaining about the AF performance soon.....

Gordon

Edited by FlashGordonPhotography
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6 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Because when you bring your eye the the rangefinder it will activate the EVF. They're too close together for this not to happen.

Do you commonly use both the rangefinder and the EVF simultaneously at a shoot / a walkabout?

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12 hours ago, orcinus said:

I don’t think you’re understanding the OP.

What he’s asking is: why can’t the Visoflex proximity sensor function as a LV button.

No feed to LCD or EVF. When you bring your eye to the EVF, the proximity sensor starts the LV. There’s no extra drain on the battery. No nore than needed to power the proximity sensor every 1/Nth of a second as it normally is.

Because it would drain the battery. E.g., when you carry the camera in front, your body is close to the EVF and it will be on all the time.

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Don’t want to or think it worth to go too much details to defend it.  if you get it you will, if not, no others can change that. 
 

Traditional M users won’t treat this as an issue anyway and will only treat it as extra benefit (shooting like regular MILC) compare to older M.  For SL2 or any other mirrorless camera users, you might feel this is an extra step but you don’t have RF focus for those:)

 I see this is the beauty of M camera that can be used both as RF or MILC. this is the BEST MIRRORLESS form if you don’t need AF. 

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Hi all,

First thank you for taking the time to try to understand what I wanted to achieve.  Thank you @orcinus to get my original question 100%  

What I indeed totally missed in my theoretical solution of the proximity sensor of the EVF acting as a Live View on/off switch is that indeed the “proximity” thing can be anything and not necessary your eye.  I tried setting the sensitivity of the sensor to low in the menu, but even then with the camera loosely hanging around your shoulder the EVF is activated. An Iris Scanner or some eye detection proximity scanner would be great but I guess only smart phones are smart enough to have that capability.

So I’ll have to live with dedicating one of the three Fn buttons to LV when I want to use the EVF for example for my tele R lenses or wide angle M’s.

Thanks everybody for your comments. 

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5 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

Hi all,

First thank you for taking the time to try to understand what I wanted to achieve.  Thank you @orcinus to get my original question 100%  

What I indeed totally missed in my theoretical solution of the proximity sensor of the EVF acting as a Live View on/off switch is that indeed the “proximity” thing can be anything and not necessary your eye.  I tried setting the sensitivity of the sensor to low in the menu, but even then with the camera loosely hanging around your shoulder the EVF is activated. An Iris Scanner or some eye detection proximity scanner would be great but I guess only smart phones are smart enough to have that capability.

So I’ll have to live with dedicating one of the three Fn buttons to LV when I want to use the EVF for example for my tele R lenses or wide angle M’s.

Thanks everybody for your comments. 

Iris scanner would be great, very useful as theft protection.

M11 has one function button more than M10-R. Count your blessings :-).

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Wait a minute! I was too fast in giving up my “solution” of not needing a dedicated LV button where the EVF proximity sensor coulds act as such a LV activation switch. 

I come to realise that the fact that the proximity sensor reacts on anything that is close to it and activates the EVF and by a consequence will drain battery is exactly how my SL2 works.  

  1. power on SL2 => evf is off
  2. bring camera to your eye => evf goes on
  3. after the set evf timeout and not pressing the shutter in the mean time => evf goes off

On the SL2 there is no dedicated button to activate LV as LV is the only mode available.  And this way of working does not significantly drains battery.

This should be an easy firmware modification for the M11?

 And giving me back a Fn button to select uncoded M lenses or R lenses.

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11 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

Wait a minute! I was too fast in giving up my “solution” of not needing a dedicated LV button where the EVF proximity sensor coulds act as such a LV activation switch. 

I come to realise that the fact that the proximity sensor reacts on anything that is close to it and activates the EVF and by a consequence will drain battery is exactly how my SL2 works.  

  1. power on SL2 => evf is off
  2. bring camera to your eye => evf goes on
  3. after the set evf timeout and not pressing the shutter in the mean time => evf goes off

On the SL2 there is no dedicated button to activate LV as LV is the only mode available.  And this way of working does not significantly drains battery.

This should be an easy firmware modification for the M11?

 And giving me back a Fn button to select uncoded M lenses or R lenses.

Leica M11 has twice as long battery life as SL2 (per CIPA numbers). Leica M11 battery is 7.4V, 1800 mAh (13.3 Wh), SL2 battery is 8.4V, 1860mAh (15,6Wh).

Self activating live view in a rangefinder is a bad idea, IMO, and would only work with an EVF mounted.

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4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Leica M11 has twice as long battery life as SL2 (per CIPA numbers). Leica M11 battery is 7.4V, 1800 mAh (13.3 Wh), SL2 battery is 8.4V, 1860mAh (15,6Wh).

Self activating live view in a rangefinder is a bad idea, IMO, and would only work with an EVF mounted.

Yes indeed that is the way I see it. Only when the EVF is mounted.

I only use and mount an EVF on an M when I mount a lens that requires an EVF.  And the self activating live view in my opinion should only work when the EVF is mounted, because the EVF is there for a reason chosen by the user.   
When the EVF is not mounted on my M11 (or other M) I almost never use LV simply because I have probably a lens mounted that works perfectly in RF modus. 

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7 hours ago, orcinus said:

Do you commonly use both the rangefinder and the EVF simultaneously at a shoot / a walkabout?

That would depend. If I am changing lenses around the wider end, yes. Or if I am alternating between eye level and waist level shooting. One of the improvements of the new VF is that it'll stay on without damage when the camera goes into a bag and it's one of the reasons I'm upgrading to the M11.

The original Leica M EVF, for the M240, had a button on the EVF itself to turn LV on/off. That would have been a solution to have an extra button. Eye sensing the EVF is not.

Gordon

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2 hours ago, Stef63 said:

Yes indeed that is the way I see it. Only when the EVF is mounted.

I only use and mount an EVF on an M when I mount a lens that requires an EVF.  And the self activating live view in my opinion should only work when the EVF is mounted, because the EVF is there for a reason chosen by the user.   
When the EVF is not mounted on my M11 (or other M) I almost never use LV simply because I have probably a lens mounted that works perfectly in RF modus. 

Your usage case is not the olny one, though.

Gordon

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