Foxtwo Posted January 24, 2022 Share #161 Posted January 24, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Funny that people complain about excessive incremental upgrades while at the same time criticizing the CL timeline. It needs to be technology upgrades that make the final image worth the investment. Society (including investors) in general has become insatiable in it’s desire for software and hardware updates, especially in tech. No matter what is provided, it isn’t enough. We’ve never had it so good, and most folks are negative and miserable. Learned a long time ago to get those people out of my life. 2 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 24, 2022 Posted January 24, 2022 Hi Foxtwo, Take a look here Looks like bad news for hopes on CL2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
NigelG Posted January 24, 2022 Share #162 Posted January 24, 2022 As a T and TL2 owner - without wishing to be a harbinger of doom - I knew realistically that the T line was dead-in-the-water when Leica UK offer the £7045 list-price TL2/18/35/60 for only £3995.... Whether the CL line will continue 🤔 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksclix Posted January 25, 2022 Share #163 Posted January 25, 2022 21 hours ago, ramarren said: In my opinion, this focus on "the number of clear shots" is the transcendence of technical qualities as important vs aesthetic qualities. Just because a photo is clearly focused does not make it good: it makes it sharp. And sharp isn't necessarily even desirable in many cases ... witness the complaints of people who see their faces in even a random photograph and complain about their wrinkles, their mussed hair, the fact that they look older than they think they should look, etc. so, you're assuming if HCB had 2 shots of that iconic image.. almost identical.. one where the subject was sharper and the other whatever we have in reality, he would have still picked the blurry one? AND.. why is this conversation revolving around one genre of photography? In sports, BIF or even action photography of kids - having a sequence of sharp images is purely golden! with 20fps, 30fps cameras, you could slow the world down around you, see and admire things you cannot even see in real life with your naked eyes.. and in that sequence is an absolutely stunning image that would make your jaw drop! it baffles me that people don't find this amazing.. especially photographers!! I can never understand this obsession with manual focusing certain folks have.. it's not like you're doing a disservice or being disloyal to legacy gear.. and its not like digital photographers who leverage latest tech do not pleasure themselves with some MF gear from time to time.. I have several MF lenses and I love them all! although used only occasionally. 22 hours ago, ramarren said: IMO, being hooked on numbers is a plague in modern photography ... more megapixels, more sensitivity, more frames per second, faster automatic focusing ... this is what all these equipment-centric forums have been obsessing about for the past 20 years of the digital era. Isn't it possible that there is enough, that the equipment is good enough, that we don't really need more of any of these things? That what we need is to see better and learn how to consistently capture photos that achieve the vision of our sight? more megapixels meant people could getaway with cropping and still getting good images, it meant people could travel with lighter lenses compared to a 600mm monster, already addressed what more frames per second could do.. its not even debatable and I don't know why I am even explaining it going by your logic, we should have continuously manufactured billions of the same camera which has proven to be sufficient for the past 30 years then.. why did the engineers care to innovate or try to make anything better at all! modern cameras don't stop you from doing what you did 30 years ago.. it just says, here, now you can do what you did 30 years ago and you can do more.. see what you can do today.. just that! 22 hours ago, ramarren said: Perhaps this is part of the reason why there is a film camera renaissance going on at present amongst young photographers old fashion always comes back.. I just got my first film camera too.. I did that because I wanted to experience it and as a photographer I don't feel its right to not have ever experience the thrill of film photography.. people like vintage cars too.. in general people like a lot of vintage stuff and shop at antique stores too.. so, youngsters developing a fascination towards old film is just curiosity among other things.. 7 hours ago, ramarren said: 'street photography' and 'reportage' are two of the categories where I don't see much benefit. this maybe true but that is your preference.. what makes you happy doesn't have to make another photog happy.. 7 hours ago, ramarren said: "AF is an essential for street photography and reportage" yes, for Louis and several photographers.. because they like different things.. why does it make that "incorrect" is my question.. Just because things have been done in a certain way "forced" by limited tech, should we continue to keep the expectations lower? my expectation from street photography was different in 1990 and it is different today.. and I should be surprised if nothing advanced in 30 years and not the other way around.. NOTE: I mean no disrespect towards you or anyone.. just sharing my opinions and trying to state my point of view. all of my comments are very generic and even when I address as "you" i dont really mean you and only you apologies if you find anything offensive.. just having a candid open discussion! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksclix Posted January 25, 2022 Share #164 Posted January 25, 2022 3 hours ago, NigelG said: As a T and TL2 owner - without wishing to be a harbinger of doom - I knew realistically that the T line was dead-in-the-water when Leica UK offer the £7045 list-price TL2/18/35/60 for only £3995.... Whether the CL line will continue 🤔 people bought some brand new S007 for some heavily discounted prices when the S3 came out.. it may not be the end of TLs.. you never know Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 25, 2022 Share #165 Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, aksclix said: so, you're assuming if HCB had 2 shots of that iconic image.. almost identical.. one where the subject was sharper and the other whatever we have in reality, he would have still picked the blurry one?... [snip] AND.. why is this conversation revolving around one genre of photography? ... ...this maybe true but that is your preference.. [snip] yes, for Louis and several photographers.. because they like different things.. why does it make that "incorrect" is my question.. ... [snip] What and why HCB chose the frames he chose, and what he'd do in the situation you propose, is/was up to him. I don't presume to divine his decision process. If he were still around to ask, I'd ask him the question ... This digression/conversation is revolving around street and reportage photography because that was the specific statement which is so incorrect and to which I reacted. To say something is "essential" means that without it, whatever it is essential to cannot be pursued/achieved without it, which is demonstrably not the case. Whether someone else prefers something else for their take on that kind of work is irrelevant. If nothing else, this digression has afforded some minor relief from the crazy making "omg the CL may not be updated with a newer model" discussion which has spanned four threads at least. G 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksclix Posted January 25, 2022 Share #166 Posted January 25, 2022 34 minutes ago, ramarren said: What and why HCB chose the frames he chose, and what he'd do in the situation you propose, is/was up to him. I don't presume to divine his decision process. If he were still around to ask, I'd ask him the question ... This digression/conversation is revolving around street and reportage photography because that was the specific statement which is so incorrect and to which I reacted. To say something is "essential" means that without it, whatever it is essential to cannot be pursued/achieved without it, which is demonstrably not the case. Whether someone else prefers something else for their take on that kind of work is irrelevant. If nothing else, this digression has afforded some minor relief from the crazy making "omg the CL may not be updated with a newer model" discussion which has spanned four threads at least. G So what if it is essential to someone else’s workflow? 😁 we’re in a Leica forum and just about any camera should be capable of doing reportage/street photography too.. but you and everybody here chose Leica I suppose? Why? Preferences!! 😑 anyway.. I also engaged in this discussion because it was more interesting than the original thread itself.. 😌 (thanks for not taking offense) 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocholin Posted January 25, 2022 Author Share #167 Posted January 25, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 14 minutes ago, aksclix said: anyway.. I also engaged in this discussion because it was more interesting than the original thread itself.. 😌 ...and more controversial as well Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksclix Posted January 25, 2022 Share #168 Posted January 25, 2022 9 minutes ago, pocholin said: ...and more controversial as well That’s like food 😂 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 25, 2022 Share #169 Posted January 25, 2022 (edited) Please be patient. It took almost 1 year for Leica to release the CL after M10 introduction. M11 is just so fresh. So just wait end of 2022 before panicking. 🤣 Edited January 25, 2022 by nicci78 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 25, 2022 Share #170 Posted January 25, 2022 While we’re waiting for the CL3 to arrive, some observations about HCB - he was notorious for destroying his contact sheets, and many of his most famous images apparently are single negatives cut from the strip, so the progression can’t be seen; he had a very relaxed relationship with the truth; and to be honest, I don’t believe for a second that he poked his lens through the fence behind the Gare St Lazare and captured that image by chance. It was staged. I feel confident of this, as I have an original Elliott Erwitt print, of a man jumping over a puddle holding an umbrella, with the Eiffel Tower in the background. I’m not alone in taking HCB’s story at face value. But, I do like many of his images … 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 25, 2022 Share #171 Posted January 25, 2022 How dare you 🙃 Henri is a god of photography. Obviously what he ever said is like photographic laws. Don’t ever doubt him ever again 😜 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted January 25, 2022 Share #172 Posted January 25, 2022 During the Q&A session at The Leica Society's November 11 2021 visit to Leica UK HQ Duke Street London, several members asked if a CL2 was on the horizon. The answer given by a senior Leica UK manager was: "The future is ... full frame mirrorless with GPS" ... and this reply is also documented on Mike Evans' 'Macfilos' blog. When pressed further ref demand for the CL, the manager stated: "... the CL's a good seller ... and we sell 'a lot' of Leica compact zoom cameras ..." he was referring to PanaLeica compact sales by the Duke Street store during the pandemic which had been in excess of sales pre-pandemic. The 'passing trade' includes a lot of London visitors who are likely keen to buy a small Leica digital compact fixed zoom camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 25, 2022 Share #173 Posted January 25, 2022 But zero full frame from Leica currently have GPS anymore… Q2 nope. SL2/SL2-S neither. M11 and its brand new Visoflex 2 did not. Sorry but geotagging with Fotos app did not work at all. Even with latest beta version. What did we learn ? The UK manager did not know anything 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted January 25, 2022 Share #174 Posted January 25, 2022 could be a modified Q body, with APS-C 26mp sensor cut from the m11 sensor & with L mount. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 25, 2022 Share #175 Posted January 25, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, aksclix said: So what if it is essential to someone else’s workflow? 😁 we’re in a Leica forum and just about any camera should be capable of doing reportage/street photography too.. but you and everybody here chose Leica I suppose? Why? Preferences!! 😑 anyway.. I also engaged in this discussion because it was more interesting than the original thread itself.. 😌 (thanks for not taking offense) Thanks for the vote of confidence. If the statement was "I find autofocus essential to my workflow...", that would have been just fine. It's more a language matter than anything else. It's important to indicate what you're saying is opinion vs fact. Opinions are a matter of personal preference which can always be discussed but never require more than "it suits me" as resolution; facts are information that has to stand up to verification to be credible. We have to have something to keep the discussion lively until all the CL bodies are sold off and we discover there is or isn't a successor to spend our money on, eh? LOL!!! 😈 G ... Hmm, another camera I'd like to play with is a Q2 Monochrom. That could be a winner for me... simplify what to carry, etc. Edited January 25, 2022 by ramarren Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksclix Posted January 25, 2022 Share #176 Posted January 25, 2022 6 hours ago, nicci78 said: How dare you 🙃 Henri is a god of photography. Obviously what he ever said is like photographic laws. Don’t ever doubt him ever again 😜 I know you’re kidding.. but funnily enough, This guy writes here that HCB was much less experienced when he shot that image and they were his beginning days and so on https://aboutphotography.blog/blog/2019/9/30/behind-the-gare-saint-lazare-by-henri-cartier-bresson-1932 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robgo2 Posted January 25, 2022 Share #177 Posted January 25, 2022 On 1/23/2022 at 12:55 PM, pocholin said: @ramarren, as mentioned by others, the purpose of the comment was to prove that AF has many advantages on getting a greater number of clear shots, whether they are good or not, that's a different story. HCB proved that an out of focus image can become iconic, like the man jumping already mentioned, but it still remains that MF has downsides and that even HCB took out of focus photos. Perhaps there are very skilled people in the world that are able to take moving objects in perfect focus (kudos to them) but most of us, mere mortals, rely on the "modernities" of AF and image stabilisation (when available)...otherwise AF wouldn't be as popular nowadays. A serious question is whether HCB intended for his pictures to be out of focus. I know that he once said that sharpness is a bourgeois concept, but that doesn't mean that he was aiming for softness in his own work. I doubt that he was, but he accepted it, if the overall image otherwise pleased him. So do many of us, whether we use manual or auto focus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 26, 2022 Share #178 Posted January 26, 2022 We should stop with Henri. He did best with what he has at the time. Obviously he will do things differently today. We all live with our era. By the way we will never be able to know exactly his intentions. Does it matter ? Nope. Only result does. His photos speak for himself. 2 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bags27 Posted January 26, 2022 Share #179 Posted January 26, 2022 Don't know where to post this, hope it's the right thread. If you scroll down, seems like Sigma might produce a cropped sensor L mount camera, though whether it's a foveon or bayer remains to be seen. https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/camera-rumors/7 They've been trying for 3 years to produce a FF Foveon L mount. Seems like they're still at least a year away, but I'd imagine that, coupled with L glass, it would produce astonishing images. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalLeicanator Posted January 27, 2022 Share #180 Posted January 27, 2022 21 hours ago, bags27 said: Don't know where to post this, hope it's the right thread. If you scroll down, seems like Sigma might produce a cropped sensor L mount camera, though whether it's a foveon or bayer remains to be seen. https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/camera-rumors/7 They've been trying for 3 years to produce a FF Foveon L mount. Seems like they're still at least a year away, but I'd imagine that, coupled with L glass, it would produce astonishing images. I hope they do. Sigma or Panasonic will rescue our TL lenses, not Leica (is my conjecture). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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