Looks like bad news for hopes on CL2

[geoffreyg]

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Before Godfrey commented on this, it did pop out as "oh really?", as reportage has long been a strength of Leica with manual focus. Previsualize, set your focus, work DOF and hyperfocal, tricks of the trade around long before AF. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by geoffreyg

[Louis]

12 minutes ago, geoffreyg said:

Before Godfrey commented on this, it did pop out as "oh really?", as reportage has long been a strength of Leica with manual focus. Previsualize, set your focus, work DOF and hyperfocal, tricks of the trade around long before AF. 

Of course!

My point was about the difference between AF cameras and MF cameras. It is obvious that we can work faster and maybe with more accurate focusing with a AF camera for actions and events like sport, etc. I have been shooting sports events with MF film cameras, but I find it easier now, in our digital world, to work with accurate AF gear.

I am not diminishing the ability of M11 or any M; they are fantastic cameras, but obviously, they are more perfect for some situations rather than others.

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[ramarren]

I have used AF and MF gear for all kinds of photo situations. For reportage and street photography, I find it is only very very rarely the case that I get "more accurate focusing with a AF camera" ... the converse is by far the case. The same goes for most complex scenes.

For certain specific kinds of fast moving sports events, AF is a often plus, and for some types of nature and wildlife photography ... the same. But not all. IMO of course. 

BTW: I don't compare myself with HCB, that was not the point of my post. The point of the post was that he made superb street photography with excellent timing and manual focus, as did so many other reportage photographers for years before AF existed. And I find the same today. To say that AF is an essential for street and reportage photography is simply incorrect.

Yes: I know this is the modern era and that other tools exists—I've used/experimented with nearly all of them. But I don't find autofocus to be a 100% plus enabler ensuring I get more accurately focused results than manual focus all the time, for anything. I find it a useful convenience when it works; in a small number of situations it enables results that I would be hard pressed to obtain other ways, but those cases are a subset of my usual needs. 

...And, of course, it is also true that the Leica M is not the "best" camera for every kind of photography either...   

G

 

[Louis]

Here we go again! 😂

I know; I know; for  many years you have been  telling us what a great and experienced photographer you are, and all your expensive and top notch lens and cameras! 😂

Sorry, I prefer go shooting or visiting an art gallery instead of sitting behind my computer and keep arguing about the obvious!

This was not the topic in this thread, anyway!

Have a good day! 😉

Edited January 22, 2022 by Louis

[pocholin]

Does anyone know how many out of focus pictures HCB might've taken? It would be great to know the ratio of worth-showing versus out of focus that he did in his life. 

Getting back in the thread topic, it seems this will be a busy year for Leica with product releases (can't remember where I read it)...so, I'm going to keep my hopes up for the CL2....and may be the recent leak is not a Q3 but a CL2, one is allowed to dream

Edited January 22, 2022 by pocholin

[FrozenInTime]

10 minutes ago, pocholin said:

Does anyone know how many out of focus pictures HCB might've taken? It would be great to know the ratio of worth-showing versus out of focus that he did in his life. 

Getting back in the thread topic, it seems this will be a busy year for Leica with product releases (can't remember where I read it)...so, I'm going to keep my hopes up for the CL2....and may be the recent leak is not a Q3 but a CL2, one is allowed to dream

In the end he switched to a Minilux - proving Leica needs a good compact camera and AF 40mm lens 😉

Edited January 22, 2022 by FrozenInTime

[geoffreyg]

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 While I don't always agree with all posts, the one above about HCB and manual focus seemed pretty reasonable.

[LocalHero1953]

31 minutes ago, geoffreyg said:

 While I don't always agree with all posts, the one above about HCB and manual focus seemed pretty reasonable.

But Louis' track record, demonstrated regularly in the CL image thread, is also impressive. 'Street photography' covers a wide range of subjects and approaches. Cartier-Bresson didn't shoot people the way Louis does and vice versa*. Different times, different subjects, different approaches, different equipment.

If you want to create a shitstorm, suggest on a Leica forum that AF is better than MF. In the real world, however, AF is faster than MF for some subject matter, and MF is faster than AF for some other subject matter. (JMO, of course 🙂)

Edit: and may I risk another shitstorm if I suggest (after a quick look through my Cartier-Bresson book) that much of his work depended on timing and composition, not rapid focus?

 

* One obvious difference, and I hope Louis will chip in if he disagrees, is that most of his subjects are aware of him photographing them. Cartier-Bresson's subjects were mostly unaware. This has ramifications for photographic practice. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[ramarren]

5 hours ago, Louis said:

Here we go again! 😂 
I know; I know; for many years you have been telling us what a great and experienced photographer you are, and all your expensive and top notch lens and cameras! 😂 
Sorry, I prefer go shooting or visiting an art gallery instead of sitting behind my computer and keep arguing about the obvious!
This was not the topic in this thread, anyway!
Have a good day! 😉 

Ah Louis, 

Thank you for the compliment. I've never claimed anything I made was more than just "satisfying to me," I leave it to others to make whatever aesthetic evaluation they like. And I bet you have a lot more expensive equipment than I've ever owned. But you feel moved to pursue ad hominem remarks whenever I've tried to converse with you. I don't make incorrect statements of grandiose sweeping generality like you do either. I just say what I do, and offer my opinions about what works for me. If that's "telling us what a great and experienced photographer you are", well, this reveals much more about you than about me. 

Go do something you find more entertaining, please. I do the same with 99% of my day, today included.  

G

Edited January 22, 2022 by ramarren

[bandrews]

6 hours ago, Louis said:

Here we go again! 😂

I know; I know; for  many years you have been  telling us what a great and experienced photographer you are, and all your expensive and top notch lens and cameras! 😂

Sorry, I prefer go shooting or visiting an art gallery instead of sitting behind my computer and keep arguing about the obvious!

This was not the topic in this thread, anyway!

Have a good day! 😉

To be fair you said for street and reportage “AF is a must”. If anything, these are two occasions where I find the technique of “stop down and zone focus” to be more reliable than AF. I think most would agree that for sports and action a long lens with a speedy and accurate AF is fairly essential but that’s not what you said nor is it what Ramarren was suggesting. I’m not really one for getting involved in forum disputes but feel your passive aggression towards @ramarrenis a little uncalled for.

[Louis]

Godfrey, now you are becoming really very funny!... No further comment! 😂

Although the topic of this thread was about CL and the future of CL, before some posters (!) changed the path, I should respond to some questions that were directed to me.

Paul, first of all; I really appreciate your kind and encouraging comments; thank you.

I am far from being knowledgeable about cameras, lenses, and the history of photography (like lots of people here seem to be), I am just expressing my own unprofessional observation that may be right or wrong!  But as you seem to agree, I believe we are living in a completely different world than HCB world. Now, we are in over populated streets with almost everyone shooting with a cellular. I wonder if in those days, everyone in the street even knew what  a camera exactly was and what HCB was doing! Again, I may perfectly be wrong!... I guess HCB was taking his time to set his camera and also had, as someone suggested, a great deal of missed photos. Nevertheless, he was an absolutely great photographer who, even till now, is inspiring us and giving us great lessons of "Photography"!

Now, when I am in the street and pointing to something, I notice everyone stopping  and curiously  watching what I am doing! It is extremely hard to be "Transparent" as they say! 

I love shooting with my MF lenses, but in this situation, it is easier and faster for me (for me) to use my AF lenses! 

What you see in CL photo forum is not really me! As the matter of fact, I feel very uncomfortable to post in this forum. There, most of the folks are interested in "Nature", while I am more interested in street and people photography that is, I believe, a form of "reportage"; I am there only to see some great shots of a very few wonderful folks. 

As for the connection between me and my subjects, you are right; for portraits, most of my subjects know I am shooting them and I try to create a connection with them. Most, but not all! In the streets, I feel uncomfortable with MF and I prefer to use the zoom and AF in order to keep my distance from people, hopping to not be noticed! If you check the Street Photography of this site, you may notice that the people I shot were not aware of being shot! ( except the post that my daughter shot of me with Leica T  )

I hope I could responded to some questions, although I am not a writer, and only a simple shooter like so many others; expressing only my own unprofessional views!  

Best regards to all

[Louis]

36 minutes ago, bandrews said:

To be fair you said for street and reportage “AF is a must”. If anything, these are two occasions where I find the technique of “stop down and zone focus” to be more reliable than AF. I think most would agree that for sports and action a long lens with a speedy and accurate AF is fairly essential but that’s not what you said nor is it what Ramarren was suggesting. I’m not really one for getting involved in forum disputes but feel your passive aggression towards @ramarrenis a little uncalled for.

Thank you for your comments, bandrews. I was only talking about my own experience. As for the other poster that you mentioned, I know him for a very long time from DPreview and here; and, he always tried to change any subject and to contradict everyone. I was just reacting to him!   

Edited January 22, 2022 by Louis

[jaapv]

Please keep the personal stuff out of the discussion, gentlemen.

[adan]

ON TOPIC.

I noted in the "Leica M11 Tech Talk" video that Leica's head of product development said there would be no further camera introductions in 2022.

Bad news - no CL2 right away

Good news - Leica has been tied up with the M11 for 3-4 years, which may explain the "languishing" of the CL (and Leica even getting around to a decision about it).

Now that the M11 is out the door (plus a few months to handle any pop-up bugs) - Leica may have the time and resources to move on other things.

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, adan said:

Leica's head of product development said there would be no further camera introductions in 2022

i guess special editions will probably still be released.

[dkCambridgeshire]

1 hour ago, adan said:

ON TOPIC.

I noted in the "Leica M11 Tech Talk" video that Leica's head of product development said there would be no further camera introductions in 2022.

Bad news - no CL2 right away

Good news - Leica has been tied up with the M11 for 3-4 years, which may explain the "languishing" of the CL (and Leica even getting around to a decision about it).

Now that the M11 is out the door (plus a few months to handle any pop-up bugs) - Leica may have the time and resources to move on other things.

Few Leica enthusiasts realise just how long a new Leica camera's R&D to the prototype stage takes, the cost of same, the third party teamwork involved, and the resources required (in the broadest sense) to commence actual production. And initial market research must suggest the potential sales volumes to warrant the 3-4 years development and make it a viable proposition. 

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, adan said:

ON TOPIC.

I noted in the "Leica M11 Tech Talk" video that Leica's head of product development said there would be no further camera introductions in 2022.

Bad news - no CL2 right away

Good news - Leica has been tied up with the M11 for 3-4 years, which may explain the "languishing" of the CL (and Leica even getting around to a decision about it).

Now that the M11 is out the door (plus a few months to handle any pop-up bugs) - Leica may have the time and resources to move on other things.

Yes and no - normally Leica assigns different design teams to each new camera to be able to develop more than one type at a time and it would not be surprising if a CL3 were produced in Japan - after all, the. lenses are. 

[robgo2]

13 hours ago, pocholin said:

Does anyone know how many out of focus pictures HCB might've taken? It would be great to know the ratio of worth-showing versus out of focus that he did in his life. 

Getting back in the thread topic, it seems this will be a busy year for Leica with product releases (can't remember where I read it)...so, I'm going to keep my hopes up for the CL2....and may be the recent leak is not a Q3 but a CL2, one is allowed to dream

I believe that HCB's contact sheets show more than a few out of focus images. Also plenty of mediocre ones. No doubt his hit rate was way higher than any of ours.

[aksclix]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Yes and no - normally Leica assigns different design teams to each new camera to be able to develop more than one type at a time and it would not be surprising if a CL3 were produced in Japan - after all, the. lenses are. 

I was also wondering the same.. if the latest SL 24-70 f/2.8 was outsourced to Japan base then certainly that can be sign of things to come…  

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[ramarren]

3 hours ago, robgo2 said:

I believe that HCB's contact sheets show more than a few out of focus images. Also plenty of mediocre ones. No doubt his hit rate was way higher than any of ours.

It is irrelevant what kind of "hit rate" any photographer might have, for any reason. Some photographers try to make every exposure count, others shoot lots looking for just the one ... neither practice is good, bad, or better than the other. The only thing that matters is that a photographer capture the vision in their mind, and, if on assignment, the results the client is paying for within the budget and time prescribed. 

G