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Looks like bad news for hopes on CL2


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55 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

ICL Q was dismissed years ago as being too front heavy

Absolutely, using the current L mount lenses. Not sure about you but can't see much other way forward for the CL. Sigma is making some fantastic L mount lenses that are way more compact than the almost comically large Leica offerings.

Alternative is EVF-only camera with native M mount... Would be to the M what the XE4 is to the X Pro 3....

One of the problems Leica has is they have

4 camera body lines - S, SL, M, TL/CL
4 lens lines - S, SL, M, TL
3 lens mounts - S, M, L
3 sensor sizes

That's a lot of focus of R&D on different products and when you're a niche player it's going to be hard to get the sales figures to make each system pay. I can't think of any other manufacturer that spreads itself so thinly. 


 

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Another thread on the discontinuation of the CL and other APS-C models? Why? Hasn't the topic been beaten to death about five times over on the three or four other "death of the CL" threads? 

I'm happy with my CL and see little to update on it. When Leica produces another camera in the size/performance/price range that interests me, I'll buy it ... in the meanwhile, I'm happy to use the CL I have until it stops working.

If that happens, THEN I'll go looking for another camera that I can re-use my Leica M and R lenses on, again. Probably another M, or another SL, at that point, if they've decided that APS-C format isn't what they can make a profit with. Really doesn't matter to me. I don't have any particular need for vastly more than the 24Mpixel sensor that the CL has (although 50Mpixel is nice with the Hasselblad 907x); in fact, I get away with 5Mpixel using my Olympus E-1 occasionally with rather nice results.

I don't really understand the obsession with the fact that a manufacturer might cancel a particular line of cameras. 

G

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3 minutes ago, ramarren said:

I don't really understand the obsession with the fact that a manufacturer might cancel a particular line of cameras. 

 

Lack of understanding doesn't mean others don't have their own reasons to discuss it. 
You might consider not posting to threads you're not interested in. 

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28 minutes ago, ramarren said:

I don't really understand the obsession with the fact that a manufacturer might cancel a particular line of cameras. 

Maybe it’s because you don’t use the TL lenses with your CL camera. For those of us who have the TL glass it’s important to see the path ahead. 

Edited by ynp
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57 minutes ago, ynp said:

Maybe it’s because you don’t use the TL lenses with your CL camera. For those of us who have the TL glass it’s important to see the path ahead. 

And this is the practical point. If I own M lenses dating back decades I can still use them today on an M11: I have full forward compatibility. If the CL goes away the owners are left with poor compromises for their TL lenses, unless another APSC manufacturer makes them compatible with their brand.

The issue of second-rate communication from Stefan Daniel is still the bug-bear. He could easily have answered questions, but he lazily and timidly chose to leave a vacuum that will fill with rumors and hearsay that will damage the brand. That's his responsibility.

Edited by Le Chef
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20 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

And this is the practical point. If I own M lenses dating back decades I can still use them today on an M11: I have full forward compatibility. If the CL goes away the owners are left with poor compromises for their TL lenses, unless another APSC manufacturer makes them compatible with their brand.

The issue of second-rate communication from Stefan Daniel is still the bug-bear. He could easily have answered questions, but he lazily and timidly chose to leave a vacuum that will fill with rumors and hearsay that will damage the brand. That's his responsibility.

^^^ .... inappropriate and poor choice of words 

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5 hours ago, bandrews said:

...One of the problems Leica has is they have

4 camera body lines - S, SL, M, TL/CL
4 lens lines - S, SL, M, TL
3 lens mounts - S, M, L
3 sensor sizes

That's a lot of focus of R&D on different products and when you're a niche player it's going to be hard to get the sales figures to make each system pay. I can't think of any other manufacturer that spreads itself so thinly. 


 

JMHO, but the people running the show in Wetzlar are not stupid. 

True, Leica does have 4 camera body lines - S, SL, M, TL/C, 4 lens lines - S, SL, M, TL, 3 lens mounts - S, M, L and 3 sensor sizes.  Since they still make and sell all of the preceding, we are left to conclude that they all are viable products and are producing positive cash flow, even during the past two years of economic upheaval brought on by COVID. 

As for the TL, that camera never resonated with me; I just never "got" the TL. 

The CL, S and SL do resonate with me, even though I do not own any of them.  My commitment is to the M line, but I would still hate to see Leica ditch any of their other product lines.

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6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Lack of understanding doesn't mean others don't have their own reasons to discuss it. 
You might consider not posting to threads you're not interested in. 

I never said anything about not being interested. I said I don't understand it, and wonder why yet another thread on the same topic is deemed necessary. 
G

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6 hours ago, ynp said:

Maybe it’s because you don’t use the TL lenses with your CL camera. For those of us who have the TL glass it’s important to see the path ahead. 

Perhaps. You bought the camera and the lenses because the do the job you wanted, right? They'll keep doing that job for as long as you keep using them, or until they break irreparably. Why is it so important to "see the path ahead" unless you're fundamentally dissatisfied with what you have? At which point, why is it critical that the company inform you that what's coming up is going to be mostly more of the same and maybe another feature or two, or tells you outright that if/when you want something better, it will be a different system? 

I have always bought equipment based on what it does, not what some new bit might do next year. I've not expected any company to tell me what's coming up until they're ready to make the disclosure, and then I think about what they're offering, what it will cost me to move to it, and act in my own best interest. In the meantime, I just do my photography and don't worry about it. 

G

 

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Unfortunately the days of M43 and APS-C are over. If you want interchangeable lens cameras, most camera stores will veer you towards the FF mirrorless. The choice is wide with excellent cameras and price points from the likes of Sony, Canon, Nikon, and they have good incentives to sell these. The exception is Fuji, but their APS-C line it is starting to become jaded. They will need to soon embrace FF sensors to stay relevant.

Leica doesn't have the size to innovate and deliver on so many product lines.

For cameras, their best bet to to say focused on FF and medium format cameras. This is an areas where they can still command a premium pricing for a perceived premium quality.

Their decision to go with Sony sensors is a smart one. 

The M line is a specialist rangefinder line that appeals to a segment of users. Leica will need to innovate more to customer base. The M mount has a large base with newer lenses coming from multiple manufacturers.

The S line is a medium format line but is being threatened by advances in FF technology. It's a limited market.

The SL line plays right into the market where Sony, Nikon and Canon dominate with their FF mirrorless. Only with strong innovation will Leica differentiate themselves.

I think Leica will soon need to partner with another company to offer cheaper mass market cameras. 

 

Edited by rramesh
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“Unfortunately the days of M43 and APS-C are over.”

Nice sweeping statement with no factual support. Presumably you asked Fuji to confirm before you made this pronouncement?

My point was about poor communication not innovation or investment or product lines.

Edited by Le Chef
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I think neither m43, nor APSc will go out of fashion… purely because the quality that comes with the crop factor “advantage”.. not to mention the smaller files and the $$$ savings.. nikon D500 vs D5? Big difference in money, they created their own nemesis IMO.. 

m43 also has a great selling point with more than acceptable IQ for most needs at a much lighter package! So, only the ultimate IQ seekers will target the FF and MF market.. several hundreds of thousands of photogs would still prefer a crop sensor.. some as a secondary setup.. Olympus has come back as OM and lumix has the gh6 on the horizon.. 

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Nothing anyone here can do about it, either way. We still have battery support, get a good case and strap, and be a little careful, but get the shots that you want. 

Don't let uncertainty take away from your enjoyment of what you have now, there is enough to worry about besides the APSC camera futures market. 

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7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

JMHO, but the people running the show in Wetzlar are not stupid. 

True, Leica does have 4 camera body lines - S, SL, M, TL/C, 4 lens lines - S, SL, M, TL, 3 lens mounts - S, M, L and 3 sensor sizes.  Since they still make and sell all of the preceding, we are left to conclude that they all are viable products and are producing positive cash flow, even during the past two years of economic upheaval brought on by COVID. 

As for the TL, that camera never resonated with me; I just never "got" the TL. 

The CL, S and SL do resonate with me, even though I do not own any of them.  My commitment is to the M line, but I would still hate to see Leica ditch any of their other product lines.

Any sale will generate “positive cash flow” bit whether or not the development of the APSC line has shown a decent return on investment is a different matter. If the TL/CL project has been successful then we will see new products (because why would they kill a cash cow) but considering there has been no release of new lenses it would suggest they aren’t rushing to develop any and are instead trying to recoup their R&D costs - the costs are in the development of the products and manufacturing of the tooling parts rather than manufacture and distribution. 

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5 hours ago, rramesh said:

Unfortunately the days of M43 and APS-C are over. If you want interchangeable lens cameras, most camera stores will veer you towards the FF mirrorless. The choice is wide with excellent cameras and price points from the likes of Sony, Canon, Nikon, and they have good incentives to sell these. The exception is Fuji, but their APS-C line it is starting to become jaded. They will need to soon embrace FF sensors to stay relevant.

That's very unlikely. M43 has a distinct advantage in the realm of video, with better heat dissipation, smaller, lighter and more portable bodies and lenses, better ibis. People that do Vlogs, Youtubers, some weddings, small documentaries, they mostly use M43 for a reason and won't switch to full frame, especially with prices rising pretty much everywhere.

As for Fuji, they already have their medium format line, with a very aggressive pricing strategy. Why should they go into direct competition with Canon, Sony and Nikon instead of dominating in their APS-C niche? It doesn't make any sense.

I can see Sony ditching their APS-C line, but not Fuji.

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