aksclix Posted February 17, 2022 Share #241 Posted February 17, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 2 minutes ago, Louis said: For someone who hates "electronics" and fooling around settings like me; they still are too complicated. All the buttons on the cameras are scary for me!.... To "properly" setting up, you should have an idea what you are doing; not piece of cake for me!... I am using my CL without any special setting. I wasn't even interested to know or to understand what those rollers on top are for! I am just using one for changing the aperture!... Maybe I am too old fashion; but I prefer to concentrate more on a shot, rather than on the different features of a camera! Understand what you’re saying.. but they’re just one time setup.. and many programmable buttons will let you customize it to your needs.. some good fellas on YouTube do half the work for you helping you set it up.. 😌 Anyway, we weren’t talking about moving to Panasonic as such.. I brought up the S5 as an example, on how compact and comfortable a full frame can be! So, a CL2 made the Leica way could be an amazing upgrade if they ever make one Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 Hi aksclix, Take a look here Looks like bad news for hopes on CL2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Le Chef Posted February 17, 2022 Share #242 Posted February 17, 2022 1 hour ago, aksclix said: @nicci78 and @jaapv oh cmon.. I am not comparing the CL to anything.. I compared the S5 to a full frame equivalent of what a CL2 could be.. when canon RP, Sony a7c and Sigma fp have been thrown into the mix.. I brought up the S5 😌 CL is so compact that even the Sony a6000 couldn’t match its form factor! No argument about that.. and yes, I have the CL and had the S5 for a few weeks I simply can't see space for a FF CL2 in Leica's portfolio. You already have SL2-S and SL2 and fixed lens Q2 and Q2M. You could not viably make a FF CL2 unless it had much lower MP's than the SL2-S, had a reduced feature set that would make it less capable than the CL, and would obviously have to cost within range of the current CL pricing. If you make it smaller you still have to contend with heavy L-mount lenses to contend with the FF sensor. I neither see a real win for the customer nor financially for Leica in a FF CL2. The APSC market is still viable as witnessed by Fuji's success. An APSC CL2 would make use of the TL lenses and the Sigma alternatives (that's 26 lenses) and all the additional L-mount full frame lenses (that's 92 lenses including a weight training program) and all the M-mount lenses (that's 138 currently available lenses, not counting those out of production). 256 lenses that will work with the CL is not a bad system when you think about it. Even a half way house CL-P with tweaked APSC sensor and maybe some simple software driven changes (wandering focus point anyone?) and some modernizing of the cosmetics would suffice until there was more budget available to produce a significant step up CL2. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksclix Posted February 17, 2022 Share #243 Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Le Chef said: I simply can't see space for a FF CL2 in Leica's portfolio. You already have SL2-S and SL2 and fixed lens Q2 and Q2M. You could not viably make a FF CL2 unless it had much lower MP's than the SL2-S, had a reduced feature set that would make it less capable than the CL, and would obviously have to cost within range of the current CL pricing. If you make it smaller you still have to contend with heavy L-mount lenses to contend with the FF sensor. I neither see a real win for the customer nor financially for Leica in a FF CL2. The APSC market is still viable as witnessed by Fuji's success. An APSC CL2 would make use of the TL lenses and the Sigma alternatives (that's 26 lenses) and all the additional L-mount full frame lenses (that's 92 lenses including a weight training program) and all the M-mount lenses (that's 138 currently available lenses, not counting those out of production). 256 lenses that will work with the CL is not a bad system when you think about it. Even a half way house CL-P with tweaked APSC sensor and maybe some simple software driven changes (wandering focus point anyone?) and some modernizing of the cosmetics would suffice until there was more budget available to produce a significant step up CL2. I am sure there won’t be a FF equivalent in place a CL2. I am just toying with that thought and playing along with discussion 😀 I also already mentioned in one of my previous posts on this thread that it wouldn’t make sense to use a heavy 24-90 and 90-280 on a lighter SL3.. I think it balances well with the current SL2 (or maybe I am just used to it?) I own different cameras and anytime I pick up the SL2 with either of those two lenses, it feels balanced although on the heavier side. just to clarify, I don’t want a FF sensor in place of a CL2. I DO want the crop sensor for its additional reach and smaller size. So, I would also only be interested in a CL2 APSC body Edited February 17, 2022 by aksclix 9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simone_DF Posted February 18, 2022 Share #244 Posted February 18, 2022 17 hours ago, aksclix said: There are pros and cons to that. People kept wanting smaller then they started complaining their pinkie finger needs a place to rest too.. a compact Sony a1/ a7rIV is still criticized for that reason. However, I like the form factor of those 2 bodies especially. The ones before that didn’t have a deep enough grip which was addressed in the a1 and a7rIV. I am not sure the a7c is a well liked design. I tried it and did not feel it was comfortable at all. I had the Canon RP as well. It was pretty good! The Sigma fp series does not even have a grip.. so ergonomics is out of question with those. The latter 2 do not have IBIS. I think the right comparison would be Panasonic S5. It is really compact AND comfortable. That’s the desired combination. Add a battery grip if the camera is too small for you. You can always increase the size with add-ons to make it more comforable if desired, but you cannot do the opposite. I have small hands and the A7 size is perfect for me. A friend of mine purchased a bulky case to have a pinkie finger rest. But I can't shave a few cm from my SL2s, not even with sandpaper. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simone_DF Posted February 18, 2022 Share #245 Posted February 18, 2022 13 hours ago, aksclix said: I also already mentioned in one of my previous posts on this thread that it wouldn’t make sense to use a heavy 24-90 and 90-280 on a lighter SL3 Have you ever seen a photo of a Leica M with either the recent Noctilux 75 or the 90 Summilux? Look how front heavy it is. It's 1055g, twice the weight of the silver M11 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/328573-looks-like-bad-news-for-hopes-on-cl2/?do=findComment&comment=4385914'>More sharing options...
aksclix Posted February 18, 2022 Share #246 Posted February 18, 2022 4 hours ago, Simone_DF said: Add a battery grip if the camera is too small for you Never been a fan of battery grips.. but yea, if you have small hands the a7 makes a great choice 4 hours ago, Simone_DF said: Have you ever seen a photo of a Leica M with either the recent Noctilux 75 or the 90 Summilux? Look how front heavy it is. It's 1055g, twice the weight of the silver M11 Haha! Yea, am sure it’s heavy and uncomfortable without a proper grip on the M. I have not held it so can’t speak for that further.. even at that weight, it’s still small and can be handheld I suppose.. whereas the 90-280 is a beast! Almost double that weight Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simone_DF Posted February 18, 2022 Share #247 Posted February 18, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 13 minutes ago, aksclix said: whereas the 90-280 is a beast! Almost double that weight But how many people buy the SL line to be used with telezooms? I'm sure it has its place in the market, but you cannot build a camera aiming only at what that niche market need. You have to look at the bigger picture, if you want to succeed in the mirrorless world. A smaller and lighter SL3 would be beneficial to anybody using M lenses, TL lenses, SL APO primes, Sigma lenses, Panasonic lenses, but not beneficial to the 90-280 gang. See where this is going? 😉 And how can Leica claim that the SL2 is the solution to people that want a EVF M when we have a M11 that weights 500g and a SL2 that is twice the weight and bulk is beyond me. The Panasonic S line started to gain some market share only when the S5 got released. A S5-sized SL3 is what Leica should aim to release. Edited February 18, 2022 by Simone_DF Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksclix Posted February 18, 2022 Share #248 Posted February 18, 2022 6 hours ago, Simone_DF said: But how many people buy the SL line to be used with telezooms? I'm sure it has its place in the market, but you cannot build a camera aiming only at what that niche market need. You have to look at the bigger picture, if you want to succeed in the mirrorless world. A smaller and lighter SL3 would be beneficial to anybody using M lenses, TL lenses, SL APO primes, Sigma lenses, Panasonic lenses, but not beneficial to the 90-280 gang. See where this is going? 😉 And how can Leica claim that the SL2 is the solution to people that want a EVF M when we have a M11 that weights 500g and a SL2 that is twice the weight and bulk is beyond me. The Panasonic S line started to gain some market share only when the S5 got released. A S5-sized SL3 is what Leica should aim to release. I’d love that but I’d love it more if it’s an APS-C mount to be honest.. I like the possibility of mixing different sensor formats but that’s only an alternative. We might as well see a slightly lighter and smaller SL3 but it can’t really be too small IMO.. not just to accommodate TL lenses.. As I think about it more, I do not want to be upgrading Everett other year.. it’s awesome if I get to upgrade once in 4-5 years with the possibility of getting a few upgrades thru F/W updates in between. I am barely 2 years into the Leica world but clearly Leica isn’t competing with other brands.. it’s ok to observe what others are doing but short term rank #1 means nothing if they’re in it for the long haul. There is no finish line as long as innovation and technology goes.. so, as long as there is enough ROI and they attract enough buyers they should be good Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simone_DF Posted February 19, 2022 Share #249 Posted February 19, 2022 10 hours ago, aksclix said: As I think about it more, I do not want to be upgrading Everett other year.. it’s awesome if I get to upgrade once in 4-5 years with the possibility of getting a few upgrades thru F/W updates in between. I am barely 2 years into the Leica world but clearly Leica isn’t competing with other brands.. Leica is the only player in the M world and they can do what they please with that platform, but in the L mount they are in a very tight spot. They are competing with Canon, Sony and Nikon on one side, and with Panasonic internally. I'd have no problem to switch to a S5II. I can even use all the lenses I have with no decrease in performance, and maybe I'd get increased performance! But by looking at other brands, the speed of releases seems to have calmed down. Sony seems to be on a 3 years lifecycle now, and same for other brands. I don't know if it's because of the chip shortages or if it's because there's not too much to innovate anymore. Probably a combination of both. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2022 Share #250 Posted February 19, 2022 10 hours ago, aksclix said: A S5-sized SL3 is what Leica should aim to release. But the S5 is still a brick compared to the CL and Q. And 714 grams. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted February 19, 2022 Share #251 Posted February 19, 2022 I like the CL for its compact size. Its image quality is more than good enough for my photographic efforts. I am considering the purchase of the 18mm lens, to make the CL a truly pocketable camera. I agree with those who say that Leica did not market the CL adequately. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enrique Santa Posted February 19, 2022 Share #252 Posted February 19, 2022 The argument of Leica beeing a small company is no argument. Leica is small ok , but it has several production lines, and the only two that are really selling are Q and M line... Same for those who think that CL is expensive compared with other brands. Yes it is , like ALL Leica catalog, but is a real LEICA. I love the form factor of my CL , the interface, their lenses. Not so long ago I thought about selling all my CL kit...now I know that my CL will be with me untill it dies, but Leica, be warmed, I'm no more confident in your products if there is no CL2. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simone_DF Posted February 19, 2022 Share #253 Posted February 19, 2022 1 hour ago, jaapv said: But the S5 is still a brick compared to the CL and Q. And 714 grams. you're absolutely right, and I'd buy a CL2 myself, but that path apparently is not on Leica's roadmap A "QL" would be even better, even if it'd be slightly thicker, and would sell like hotcakes, but I somehow don't see Leica going that way. If we're lucky we might end up seeing a buffed FP aimed at still photographers, with better ergos, a Foveon sensor and an integrated EVF Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted February 19, 2022 Share #254 Posted February 19, 2022 May be the real issue with future CL2 is the availability of a suitable sensor. Sadly Sony 26MP BSI is not better than current 24MP FSI used by CL. So why bother to upgrade ? Even Sony did not for its own APS-C line up. Leica might have to wait for 43MP BSI stacked APS-C sensor from Sony Semicon. But such tech might prove too good compare to SL2… Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted February 19, 2022 Share #255 Posted February 19, 2022 8 minutes ago, nicci78 said: May be the real issue with future CL2 is the availability of a suitable sensor. Sadly Sony 26MP BSI is not better than current 24MP FSI used by CL. So why bother to upgrade ? Even Sony did not for its own APS-C line up. Leica might have to wait for 43MP BSI stacked APS-C sensor from Sony Semicon. But such tech might prove too good compare to SL2… isnt there a 36mp sony sensor as well? or is that full frame only? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted February 19, 2022 Share #256 Posted February 19, 2022 Little point in developing a CL2 if Leica cannot sell enough of them to show a profit ... At the end of the day it's the 'bottom line' which matters. OK there are lots of TLF members who are keen to buy a CL2 ... but you're likely a relatively small % of the required 'to make a profit' production volume ... Leica Camera AG does not survive on 'thin air' . Please be aware that ALL camera manufacturers are experiencing lower demand for their products ... the year on year sales data is available online. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksclix Posted February 19, 2022 Share #257 Posted February 19, 2022 5 hours ago, jaapv said: But the S5 is still a brick compared to the CL and Q. And 714 grams. No comparisons with the CL or even the Q.. Just comparing with SL2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2022 Share #258 Posted February 19, 2022 3 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said: Little point in developing a CL2 if Leica cannot sell enough of them to show a profit ... At the end of the day it's the 'bottom line' which matters. OK there are lots of TLF members who are keen to buy a CL2 ... but you're likely a relatively small % of the required 'to make a profit' production volume ... Leica Camera AG does not survive on 'thin air' . Please be aware that ALL camera manufacturers are experiencing lower demand for their products ... the year on year sales data is available online. My point being that IMO the camera could sell MUCH better if with proper marketing and product image building. 2 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted February 19, 2022 Share #259 Posted February 19, 2022 35 minutes ago, jaapv said: My point being that IMO the camera could sell MUCH better if with proper marketing and product image building. Leica would benefit if ... and it's a very big 'IF' ... the next James Bond uses a Leica ... that would be marketing par excellence 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2022 Share #260 Posted February 19, 2022 8 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said: Leica would benefit if ... and it's a very big 'IF' ... the next James Bond uses a Leica ... that would be marketing par excellence But can M order him to use a non-M camera? 2 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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