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Looks like bad news for hopes on CL2


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It occurs to me that if "full frame is king" becomes accepted dogma, then it follows that certain companies will abandon the APS-C format completely rather than trying to prove the dogma wrong. That may be why Leica appears to have failed to support the CL commercially, even though it is a great camera with many endearing qualities, most especially small size and low weight. In a very real sense, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Edited by robgo2
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My pick is Leica is a bit stuck in the headlights over the APS-C cameras.

When this all started, it was the Leica T (had one, and ditched it quite quickly - I liked it, but there was just too much wrong with it); that camera was re-released as the TL; then we had the TL2, the camera the original T was supposed to be.  That's three versions of its flagship APS-C camera, and it never captured public affection.  But, Leica was committed to the concept enough to release three versions of it, and name all the lenses "TL".

Leica had expressed commitment to APS-C at the time.  It filled a niche - small light cameras, with quality lenses; a step up from cellphones and an initial step into Leica's mainstream full frame cameras.  But it didn't sell, apparently.

So, the re-dressed the TL2 as the CL - sold well to M users (judging by comments here), but did it sell more widely?  Really?  The CL2 has never happened and when was the last new TL lens?

My guess is Leica is wondering what to do next.  The backlash from discontinuing the R system must have hurt (many R lenses were quite new when that decision was made), but they did deliver (eventually) with the SL.  And that camera was properly resolved on release.  I still love mine, despite its size and weight - it is the best solution for zooms, tele's and super-wides (where the M system struggles).

So, what does Leica do for all those who have bought TL lenses?  and with the sky-rocketing price of the M11 (not a camera I feel positive about), what is the entry level?  While you can blame Leica to a degree for the poor sales of the APS-C cameras, the TL2 was a brave attempt (I like mine), where the CL was effectively the same camera with a built in EVF wrapped to look like an M.

The APS-C sector just may be dead.  Leica's cheaper alternative to the M11 might give a clue to what they're thinking.  If they go with another APS-C, it might be something different from the TL2 and the CL.

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10 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

<snip>

The APS-C sector just may be dead.

For whom? By all accounts Fuji's multiple offerings of both badies and lenses are excellent in quality and value, and they have declined 'full-frame' in favour of 'medium format' (even though the latter is a misnomer compared to the film sizes so-labelled).

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47 minutes ago, Richardgb said:

For whom? By all accounts Fuji's multiple offerings of both badies and lenses are excellent in quality and value, and they have declined 'full-frame' in favour of 'medium format' (even though the latter is a misnomer compared to the film sizes so-labelled).

The bottom line is that Leica has been doing very bad planning!...

They are lost in their mess; and we are lost in the mess they made!.... For a small company that needs cash to survive; this mess is unpardonable!... This is also very discouraging and upsetting for those of us who trusted Leica! Many of us invested in TL lenses and if apsc is dead, Leica better come with a camera with biiiig sensor to compensate the crop with TL lenses!... If Leica think they can live only with M system; I believe they  are completely wrong!.... I think it is time for Leica to have a completely new decision making team; if not, they will have the same destiny as Zeiss,  Voigtländer, etc... A smart and full of cash Japanese guy would buy the company and bring it to Asia!...

Fuji is certainly a reliable company (comparing to Leica); and they are making great cameras; I only wish we could use our TL lenses on their apsc cameras. But unfortunately, it seems it is technically not possible!...

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1 hour ago, Richardgb said:

For whom? By all accounts Fuji's multiple offerings of both badies and lenses are excellent in quality and value, and they have declined 'full-frame' in favour of 'medium format' (even though the latter is a misnomer compared to the film sizes so-labelled).

Who makes L mount APS-C cameras?  No one, apart from Leica.  Other APS-C cameras? Canon (EF mount), Nikon (DX), Fuji (X mount) & Sony (E mount) … If we take out the dSLR cameras, that leaves Leica competing with its APS-C L mount against Sony …

Yeah, so my estimation is that APS-C is pretty firmly Sony with its ZV series and Fuji’s X series.  Of those two, Fuji seems to be the most committed to APS-C.  It’s a dead end for Leica.  I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but surely it looks like a market loser.

PS - I feel for @Louis and others invested in the TL lenses (I only have two for my TL2), but Leica does have form …. It may be that they will release an upgraded CL2 (how expensive can that be?).

Edited by IkarusJohn
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Well, with Leica they have "competing" sections and development teams for different camera lines. That puts the coordinating firmly in the hands of the top management and the owner. Are we seeing a King and Courtiers effect here? I has been known to happen to companies that are taken out of the public shareholders domain. 

 

9 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Who makes L mount APS-C cameras?  No one, apart from Leica.  Other APS-C cameras? Canon (EF mount), Nikon (DX), Fuji (X mount) & Sony (E mount) … If we take out the dSLR cameras, that leaves Leica competing with its APS-C L mount against Sony …

Yeah, so my estimation is that APS-C is pretty firmly Sony with its ZV series and Fuji’s X series.  Of those two, Fuji seems to be the most committed to APS-C.  It’s a dead end for Leica.  I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but surely it looks like a market loser.

PS - I feel for @Louis and others invested in the TL lenses (I only have two for my TL2), but Leica does have form …. It may be that they will release an upgraded CL2 (how expensive can that be?).

Who knows what the future will bring? Sigma seems to be embracing APS-C/L in lenses...

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Fun fact M11 and future SL3 with 60MP BSI can make CL2 26MP BSI kind of redundant.

Because this time, cropping 1.5x the full frame 60MP will give you the very same 26MP APS-C ! 
Not a lesser version with less dynamic range, more noise and less pixels.

So in a way a small SL3 or a interchangeable version of Q3 like a QL can make CL2 less compelling.

Does Leica decided to finally go for a small 24x36 L-mount instead of the CL2 ? 
Something a little bit bigger than fp L with proper mechanical shutter and integrated EVF. 
Without IBIS to save internal space and lower price without competing with future SL3  

 

 

 

 

Edited by nicci78
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Well, as much as I’d like a smaller SL3, I am not sure how small they’d want to go. Going too small would make the 24-90 and 90-280 too big, front heavy paired with it.. 

Also, an SL3 would never approach the size of the CL.. it is way too compact!

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Sony (A7C) Canon (Rp) and Sigma (fp & fp L) are all trying to make as small and cheap full frame cameras possible. 
It may be possible to reach Q2 size with interchangeable cameras. 
One day just like Nikon Z9, electronic shutter will be so good that small as Sigma fp full frame cameras will be common place. 

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There are pros and cons to that. People kept wanting smaller then they started complaining their pinkie finger needs a place to rest too.. a compact Sony a1/ a7rIV is still criticized for that reason. However, I like the form factor of those 2 bodies especially. The ones before that didn’t have a deep enough grip which was addressed in the a1 and a7rIV. 
I am not sure the a7c is a well liked design. I tried it and did not feel it was comfortable at all. I had the Canon RP as well. It was pretty good! The Sigma fp series does not even have a grip.. so ergonomics is out of question with those. The latter 2 do not have IBIS. I think the right comparison would be Panasonic S5. It is really compact AND comfortable. That’s the desired combination. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Don’t get depressed. 
Remember 2017 announcements: 
January  M10
July : TL2
November : CL 

There is a chance that CL2 will be release between July and November of this year. If history repeat itself. 

Nicki, I like your optimism  👍🏻 😊I buy apsc because I want a quality camera - that only leica can make them.  So apsc CL2, is fine for me.  26 MB BSI + better in low light and a better autofocus.

Good for M lenses, TL and Sl lenses.  And at a reasonable price.  M has become so expensive it is not to come near. And SL is for a completely different customer group. Far too big!!

Let's believe and hope you're right.  But I miss more rumors and something more concrete.  So therefore I doubt and even in Leica shops there are not many who believe in it.  Too bad it's such a good system.

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2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Fun fact M11 and future SL3 with 60MP BSI can make CL2 26MP BSI kind of redundant.

Because this time, cropping 1.5x the full frame 60MP will give you the very same 26MP APS-C ! 
Not a lesser version with less dynamic range, more noise and less pixels.

So in a way a small SL3 or a interchangeable version of Q3 like a QL can make CL2 less compelling.

Does Leica decided to finally go for a small 24x36 L-mount instead of the CL2 ? 
Something a little bit bigger than fp L with proper mechanical shutter and integrated EVF. 
Without IBIS to save internal space and lower price without competing with future SL3  

 

 

 

 

The missing word here is “Cannibalization”. Would someone pay more for a small SL3 to replace the CL than they would for an SL2? Because to make money that’s what Leica would have to do. If people traded down in price what value is there for the SL2? Since the SL2 is already expensive I can’t see too many people paying more for it. And that still doesn’t solve your CL problem, which is bringing new buyers into Leica and encouraging them to buy into the system of TL lenses. You can dream all you like but in the end you follow the money.

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1 hour ago, aksclix said:

I think the right comparison would be Panasonic S5. It is really compact AND comfortable. That’s the desired combination. 
 

 

Do you have a S5? And a CL? Compared tot the CL it is pretty bulky...

And hefty - 403 grams vs 714.

They are complementary - they cannot replace one another.

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@nicci78 and @jaapv oh cmon.. I am not comparing the CL to anything.. I compared the S5 to a full frame equivalent of what a CL2 could be.. when canon RP, Sony a7c and Sigma fp have been thrown into the mix.. I brought up the S5 😌 

CL is so compact that even the Sony a6000 couldn’t match its form factor! No argument about that.. 

and yes, I have the CL and had the S5 for a few weeks 

Edited by aksclix
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Don't forget the interface! Lumix has a bunch of complicated setups like any other Japanese camera. What I like with Leica cameras is the simplicity of the programs and features of the camera. I used Nikon D300 for a while and hated it. I spent more time wondering what setting to use than to take any shot!....

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39 minutes ago, Louis said:

Don't forget the interface! Lumix has a bunch of complicated setups like any other Japanese camera

That is not quite true. The interface may look daunting, at first sight, but when it is properly set up it is a far more analog type control than the CL. You can do almost anything without opening the menu. It only gets complicated when you access the extensive Video controls, which are well separated from the stills section. Example: User profiles are by a vintage looking wheel, the same for selftimer and series bursts. Other  settings are easily accessed by a few clearly marked and well-placed buttons. I need to take the CL from my eye far more often than the S5. Simply ignore the rest.The only thing that I really dislike is the hair trigger shutter with manual lenses. 

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4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

That is not quite true. The interface may look daunting, at first sight, but when it is properly set up it is a far more analog type control than the CL. You can do almost anything without opening the menu. It only gets complicated when you access the extensive Video controls, which are well separated from the stills section. Example: User profiles are by a vintage looking wheel, the same for selftimer and series bursts. Other  settings are easily accessed by a few clearly marked and well-placed buttons. I need to take the CL from my eye far more often than the S5. Simply ignore the rest.

For someone who hates "electronics" and fooling around settings like me; they still are too complicated. All the buttons on the cameras are scary for me!....  To "properly" setting up, you should have an idea what you are doing; not piece of cake for me!... I am using my CL without any special setting. I wasn't even interested to know or to understand what those  rollers on top are for! I am just using one for changing the aperture!... Maybe I am too old fashion; but I prefer to concentrate more on a shot, rather than on the different features of a camera! ;) 

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